Talk:Fast battleship

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Welcome to the Fast battleships Talk Page. I created this stub because the concept of fast battleships is referred to in a number of existing articles, notably Battlecruisers, without any provision for the reader to follow up the concept. Once it actually says something useful, I will link it into the Battlecruiser, Battleship and ship class articles.

This is my first Wikipedia article, so if I am not yet up to speed on Wikipedia editing practice, please help me to learn.

Enjoy!

John Moore 309 13:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited a typo: distiguished to distinguished

There was a little typo so I fixed it nothing major just one letter.

[edit] Fast battleships after the Washington Treaty?

There appear to be four schools of thought on this subject.

• All battleships designed and completed in the 1930s or 1940s (i.e from Littorio and Dunkerque onwards) are “fast battleships”, by virtue of speeds (27+ knots) much greater than those of the battleships retained from the pre-treaty era.

Well yes. Except that perhaps there could be an argument that the Montana wasn't a fast battleship, because it was specifically designed to give up speed for extra protection. Perhaps their cancellation is proof of the next argument? Nloth 00:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• The effect of the treaty, along with rising costs, was to make it impracticable for navies to develop different types of capital ship for different missions. All post-treaty capital ships were expected both to stand in the line of battle and to operate independently when required. Therefore the distinction between “fast” battleships and ordinary common-or-garden battleships is irrelevant to post-treaty battleships.
• A fast battleship, by definition, features an emphasis of speed compared to the normal practice of the time (see article). The normal practice of the post-treaty period was for battleships to have designed speeds of 27 knots or more. Therefore a ship of this period can be regarded as a fast battleship only if its designed speed is much greater than this; say 30+ knots (Littorio, Dunkerque, Scharnhorst, Iowa).
• Most treaty capital ships with speeds of over 30 knots made considerable sacrifices in fighting capability to achieve this (e.g. Scharnhorst with only 11-inch guns, Dunkerque with relatively light armour), and/or were optimised for operations outside the line of battle (e.g. Kongo (as rebuilt) and Iowa for escort of fast carrier groups). They also show typical “battlecruiser” characteristics such as very high length-beam and speed-length ratios. Such ships are more correctly characterised as battlecruisers.

Could anyone seriously make the argument that the Iowa class were battlecruisers? (!) Nloth 00:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

There is also a fifth view – namely “who cares?”. I would suggest, as an answer to that, “practically everyone who has made a post to the battlecruisers talk page". I must confess to being astonished by how much passion such issues can raise.

Hey, this is Wikipedia - of course someone cares! Nloth 00:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the article should describe each of the four main views, and provide the evidence for the reader to form his or her own opinion. It might be helpful, for example, to tabulate designed speed (I suggest that trial speeds are less reliable as a guide to intentions), length-beam and speed-length ratios. I intend to start work on these lines shortly, but I will hold fire for a few days to see what other people think.

That sounds good to me - but you'll need to find external references for these four arguements. Nloth 00:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after more thought it would probably make sense to divide the table into two tables - for pre and post Washington Treaty ships. Nloth 03:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Please post here unless your message is one-to-one.

Regards, John Moore 309 13:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fast battleships" as official usage: Help needed!

Can anyone find any examples of contemporary usage, official or semi-official, of the term "fast battleship"? As far as the RN goes, I have looked up the on-line resources given at Battle of Jutland and on the HMS Hood association website [1]. As far as I can see Jellicoe and Beatty just referred to the Queen Elizabeths by that name, or collectively as the 5th Battle Squadron, whereas the term battlecruiser (usually rendered as battle cruiser) is used routinely. Even in the 1930s, British design documents for the new Capital Ship programme generally refer to the fastest designs as battlecruisers [2], [3]. A Google search returns mostly references to USN ships, although it also uncovers a well-balanced discussion at [4]. My guess is that the term originated in the US in the 30s or 40s, to distinguish new battleship construction from the much slower ships inherited from the pre-Treaty period. It should be noted that, unlike the RN, the USN consistently segregated its “fast” and “slow” battleships; where mobility was needed, as at Midway, the slow battleships were simply not deployed.

John Moore 309 13:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)