Talk:Fatalism

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WikiProject Echo has identified Fatalism as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the French language Wikipedia.

The given definition of "amor fati" fits much more closely with the practice of taoism than with the concept of "fatalism."

136.165.112.85 21:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)jd "In life, nobody gets out alive."

Contents 1 Fatalism and Predestination 2 Fatalism and logic. 3 Revamp... 4 In response to Dragon Lord 5 Recent edits 6 Towards an Understanding of Fatalism 7 Theological fatalism 8 French wikipedia article

[edit] Fatalism and Predestination

I think of fatalism as the following: You might be able to make your own choices, but those choices won't really matter because there will be events that you can't prevent from happening. Those are "fated" events. Fatalism might go so far as to say that the every event we can view as important is fated. This view of fatalism is clearly different from determanism because we could have free will in a fatalistic world.

Is fatalism really the result of predestination? I think determanism is the result of predestination. If I write this comment, but God already knew I would write this comment, then do I lack the power to refrain from doing so? No. I have the power to refrain from writing this comment as long as I could have refrained if I chose to. (The fact that I couldn't choose to is beside the point because we usually only care that we can do what we choose to do.) This is how some people argue that freedom and determinism are compatible. The same argument can be used when there is predestination in order to show that people can still make a difference in the world. --dragonlord 05:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That isn't fatalism at all. It's defeatism or predetermination. Fatalism is simply the denial of free-will and chance. There's no choice, the outcome can only be one way. Defeatism says that you can't make a difference. Fatalism doesn't imply that at all. Predestination says that events are a result of God's will, or a supreme being who operates outside of causality. Events are a product of many different actions and processes. People can make a difference, but that doesn't mean they are free. Those are separate issues. What you think and what you do can change how you feel or even the world. There is no reason to believe in free will. It's a superfluous idea which fails the test of Ockham's razor. We can explain everything without reference to free will. Utopianist 09:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fatalism and logic.

I am a disgruntled fatalist. It is my belief that the present is the only possible present, and that there isn't any other present there could be. I believe in one future or 'fate'. I believe that the past governs our future directly.

Aristotle said that: If it is fated for you to recover from your illness, then you will recover whether you call a doctor or not. Likewise, if you are fated not to recover, you will not do so even if you call a doctor. So, calling a doctor makes no difference.

What Aristotle didn't get into this is that whether or not your fated to recover, your fate also dictates whether you get a doctor or not.

Excuse my disjointed explanation.

Here's what leads me towards fatalism. Let's look at how to find the area of a square. B*H=A. Base times heighth equals area. Simple enough. This is never wrong. Base times heighth is always area. No matter what. If it's not the area then your square is screwed up, not the formula. And chances are that there's a formula for every shape possible in the second dimension. We might not know the formula, but it exists. Let's take this to the third dimension. Add width into our square equation and you have another infallible theory. Let's stray away from that for a bit and talk about something else. Suppose I take a piece of paper and write 3+X=5. I send it to a bank in Sweden and lock it away forever. I then shoot myself and everyone that knew about the paper. Because noone can solve our locked equation doesn't mean that it isn't answerable. Whether or not people find that piece of paper the answer is still X=2. What if X didn't equal 2? Then the universe and all reality would disapear. You see, reality is like a roman arch. Take out one mathematical law and the whole thing tumbles. If three plus two didn't make five than something is wrong with the formula, not the numbers. I wrote the numbers down. They are defenite. But maybe addition isn't addition and there are factors here that we don't know. That's when we get to my Swedish bank account. Whether or not we know the formula for something it's there, and whether or not we can measure things exactly, they weigh as much as they weigh. Here's what we have.

1.) Mathematics is a pure language. 2.) Whether or not we can solve a problem there is a defenite answer and no other answer is possible. 3.) Whether or not we measure something it still is just as much as it is. 4.) There is an equation for everything, whether we know it or not it is still there. 5.) It is impossible to measure every variable.

Next little part of my godless existance is chemistry. We can break things down into atoms. Let's say that we take some flourine (a set amount) and put it with some other reactant chemical (of another defenite amount). We can guess pretty damn acuratly at what'll happen, down to how much pressure is let off. And if we get it wrong then that's because something wrong with our formulas or measurements. Sound like something else?

So physics is math. Break things down to the smallest unit possible. Things act in a certain way because that's the only way they can act. Whether or not we know every variable they're still there. So let's say I drop a rock on my foot. It's falling in a certain place. We might not be able to tell exactly where it'll fall, but we can get damn close. Damn close isn't good enough for reality though. Look up at my roman arch metaphor. The answer must be exact, fate doesn't round to the nearest tenth.

Let's put a lot of this together. Let's say I go to a simple math class and give them this problem. "Chicago is 100 miles from Detroit. A train leaves Detroit for Chicago at 9:00 and is going 30mph. At 9:45 a train leaves Chicago and travels towards Detroit at 40mph. Where will the trains pass? When will they pass?" the little mans would hop to it and give me an answer. But let's say that it's a windy day. I have the same problem but want to give it to some advanced physics students. I say that there's a 20mph easterly wind. They can crack the numbers and give me an answer. It'll be more precise than what the math kids gave me. Why? Because they know more variables. Remember my Swedish bank thingy? Whether or not we know the problem there is a definate answer. So let's say we actually take two trains and do that. The physics kids will be pretty close to right, but they won't be completely right. Why? Because they didn't have all of the variables.

Butterfly effect, a butterfly on one side of the world can cause a hurricane on the other.

So that means that there is an almost infinite amount of variables. Notice the word almost. Matter is only so big, and no matter how big it is it's a finite number. So there are a set amount of variables, they're just so staggering that no one can even comprehend how many they are. But look at our Swedish bank. We don't know all of the variables, but they're still there. We don't know the all of the formulas to put the variables in, but they're still there. And besides, if we break things down to the smallest pieces possible then we have nice round numbers, just a hell of a lot more variables. But whether or not we can solve this impossible math equation doesn't matter because there's still a definate answer.

Fate doesn't mean that we can see the future. It says that there is no 'if', and that there is nothing possible but what is.

So we have an impossibly big math equation just for these two trains. Now let's say we punch everything into our calculator. Put existance into the perfect calculator and you get fate. And because whether we can measure it or not doesn't matter. Whether we know what to do with the numbers or not doesn't matter either.

The only holes in this argument are me giving a bad explanation, and faith. We can fix the first one, just send me all of your questions. The second one is a little trickier though. It boils down to the question "Is there more to existance than reality?" No one knows, but all facts point towards "No." Why? Because that grayish brain of yours is still a physical thing, and thus must follow these impossible equations

So, Aristotle, there is no choice of choosing a doctor or not in the first place. It doesn't matter. Either you'll get a doctor or you won't. And whatever happens is fated to happen

The only viable argument that I've found with this theory is positive thinking. And pesimists are more often confused with realists than optimists are.

1. What you are talking about sounds like determinism, not fatalism.

2. Premise 4 (there is an equation for everything) is unproven. It is how we explain almost everything in science, but that doesn't mean everything can be explained in science. There is good reason to think this is false because some things appear to be irreducible. Searle's Chinese room argument concludes that you can't get sematics from syntax. Is he wrong?

3. What is the equation for the creation of the universe? Why would the universe exist instead of not exist? Any explanation for this will fail. The creation of the universe required energy, but where did it come from? We could assume the universe always existed, but entropy seems to make that impossible.

4. The fact that something is physical does not mean it is reducible (to mathmatics). --dragonlord 05:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Fatalism and determinism rely on the same premises, that events are inevitable and unalterable. However, determinists believe they can predict the future with enough information. They don't say everything is predictable. Quantum indeterminacy and uncertainty show there are things we can't predict. That doesn't prove that we're free, however. It also doesn't prove a truly random event. Just because we can't understand something or predict it doesn't prove that it's free or random.

In regards to your question of why the universe exists, my answer is that void implies existence (positive and negative). It has been proved that positive and negative particles are created from nothing all the time. The void implies all possible universes. That is why things exist, rather than not exist. Because zero implies -1 and +1, -2 and +2, etc. The energy to create the universe can be spontaneously created from nothing, just like quantum virtual particles. Utopianist 09:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

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i don't like fatalism. I wrote this sentence; was that predetermined? I culd have made a speling error. Was that predetermined?

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The answer is obviously yes, even if you did it deliberately. Anyone who believes or claims anything to the contrary has either not understood the issue or is dishonest. I don't mean to morally judge such people, the vast majority of humanity, in any way. That would undermine the philosophical view I embrace.

Among the small minority of people who seem to understand determinism and infer proper fatalism (not the Aristotelian idle-argument) from it, there is again a minority who actually likes fatalism. Most people do not like fatalism at all. I'm very puzzled at this, since fatalism is not hard to understand and also has some very positive aspects to it. In my opinion, peace of mind depends on accepting reality as it is, including the unalterable reality of all past and future actions of everyone of us. But how am I to accept it if I'm convinced things could really have been different? Only the conviction that things could not have been different at all -- fatalism -- provides a theoretical framework for unconditional acceptance. This means theoretical freedom from guilt and anger, although such reactions are often very entrenched and hard to get rid of altogether (which some say would constitute spiritual enlightenment).

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I completely agree with you, aside from where you say "my godless existance"; I fully accept fatalism and all theory surrounding it HOWEVER I would not say that this should lead one to believe there wasn't (or even isn't) a 'God'. In my view 'God' should be looked at as the force that brought something from nothing. The cause of the first, and LAST truely random event: the creation of the universe. I don't know enough about creation theory to make detailed analysis, however the 2 elements that 'started' the universe could easily be looked at as the God-Devil metaphor maybe?

Here's a quote from Einstein:

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein

- posted by mookid on 27th feb 2006

The void created something from nothing. We don't need to posit the concept of God, any more than we need to posit the concept of free-will or chance. The void implies all possible universes. It is proven that positive and negative quantum virtual particles are created from nothing all the time. We can go from that to the idea that the whole universe is just one of infinite possible universes. In the beginning, there was the void. "And then nothing turned itself inside out." Utopianist 08:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revamp...

I am not an expert on fatalism, but I feel this article could be drasitcally edited. I am thinking of elaborating a bit on what fatalism is, move the "idle argument" to it's own page, and talk more about fatalism and less about the examples associated with it. What does everyone think? Any helpers? --Kevin L. 03:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, do. We need to get rid of this clown (Peter D Jones) who keeps hijacking the whole article with the straw-man "idle argument" and saying it doesn't matter what you do. That is not fatalism at all. Fatalism is the belief in only one possible past, present, and future. Every thing that happens is inevitable, unalterable, fixed, predetermined... I don't see the idle-argument as a justification for fatalism or a conclusion of belief in fatalism. It has more in common with Defeatism, and Divine Predestination. The strict definition of fatalism does not imply that human actions are pointless or that things just happen, outside of causality - as this author continually asserts. He is posting a biased concept of fatalism. Utopianist 08:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In response to Dragon Lord

That still isn't fatalism. I think you're confusing your definition of fatalism with certain aspects of determinism. The determinists on naturalism.org, (who are extremely well researched and thought-provoking, give excellent explanations of determinism and provide a great way to live meaningful, moral lives while relinquishing free will. They argue that free will isn't a necessary illusion like some people believe.) would vehemently disagree with you.

Then again you wrote that about 5 months, but I just wanted to say my piece.

I would have to agree with you that what User:Dragonlord reffered to was in fact determinism rather than fatalism, in the belief that all events, including human action, are pre-determined and that this world is the only world that could have formed. However, a question that this provoked me to ask is; can certain fatalists believe in free will, yet also hold the belief that a person's choices are so inconsequential that no matter what they do, thier decisions cannot alter their fate? I ask this because, if so, it seems as though there should be a mention on this page that where determinism and libertarian free will are mutually exclusive, that may not be the case for fatalism. (Note that I do not hold the aforementioned viewpoint, I simply want to bring into question whether or not the reltionship between fatalism and free will should be mentioned.) 66.24.229.233 01:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Fatalism and free will are incompatible. People can't choose anything. This doesn't mean we can't change anything. We can change our minds. We can influence other people. We can do things. Fatalism doesn't imply defeatism or feeling that events just "happen." There are some things we can't change, but we can undermine them or disengage from them. Those who oppose fatalism mostly misunderstand it. There is nothing depressing or negative about accepting that events are inevitable. Utopianist 08:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Would editors please refrain from deleting material they personally disagree with, and from inserting their own opinions in line with the normal WP:OR policy. If you think something on the page is wrong, find a reliable source to back up your claim.1Z 00:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The idle argument is a straw-man. It doesn't represent what real fatalists believe. It should be deleted entirely. No rational fatalist would argue that human action has no effect on reality. The main feature of fatalism is denial of free will and chance. Your information should be deleted and will, no matter how many times you post it. Get your head out of your ass, peter d jones. You don't understand fatalism at all, and using straw-men arguments just makes you look silly. cal

I didn't write that argument in this page, or originally. It is on the page because it has long featurd in discussion of the subject. It is not a-my-opinion-versus-your-opinion issue, it is an opinion-versus-fact issue. If you can find citations to prove that your version of fatlaism is more correct , you can amend the page accordingly. Otherwise not. 1Z 19:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you deep-link within the article and emphasize ONE argument for fatalism, which has long been discredited and criticized by real fatalists. The idle-argument is a straw-man, and it doesn't deserve to be emphasized as if it has anything to do with fatalism. In fact, it is inconsistent with the definition of fatalism and the first paragraph of the Stanford article. This should not be emphasized like it is, dominating the whole article.

If you can cite a verifiable source supporting your version of what "real fatalists" think,you can add it to

the page. But the relevance of the Idle Argument is already supported, so it should not be removed.1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Your statement that fatalists believe in defeatism is also contentious and not relevant to the issue of fatalism. Please stop posting contradictory information. YOu cite an article that says in the first paragraph fatalism is the belief that all events are inevitable, but you say instead that fatalists believe you might as well not DO anything, because whatever happens TO YOU is fate. That's a distortion of what fatalism means and you know it. Deep-linking proves that you are trying to give a distorted picture of fatalism. Just link to the beginning of the article and let people read for themselves. You should not emphasize an ancient discredited argument. Utopianist 22:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not "my" statement. 1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with anonymous. From the first source, SEP, "Fatalism is the view that we are powerless to do anything other that what we actually do." This does not mean that "actions are pointless and ineffectual in determining events," as this article current says, but merely that when we determine events, we cannot determine them any other way. The idle argument is a defeatist attitude possibly resulting from fatalism; it is not an argument for fatalism, but "a corollary of the conclusion," as Aristotle says in that source. These misinterpretations appear to violate WP:NOR. Pomte 06:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You may not like these interpretations, but it is a historical fact that they have been made and that is justification for referring to them in an encyclopedia article.1Z 20:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Those arguments have been discredited and ignored by real fatalists, they are not necessary to fit the definition of fatalism in the dictionary, and they are so flimsy as to be straw-men. You are emphasizing those arguments and views, which are not essential to fatalism, and saying that's what fatalism is all about. Saying that action and deliberation are pointless is NOT the same as saying that events are inevitable and people can only act the way they DO act. Whoever put forth the idle argument apparently didn't understand fatalism or believe in it. It's a straw-man. There are vastly more compelling arguments for fatalism, and esp dismissing the idea of free-will. Utopianist 22:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Explain where you are getting your information about "real fatalists".1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. All that talk about "truth" is also meaningless and irrelevant. Peter D Jones obviously has a biased agenda and he is not describing fatalism accurately. Any dictionary refutes him. I do not see defeatism as a corollary to fatalism or a consequence of it. Fatalism means accepting the way things are, were, and will be, because that's the only way they could have been. It doesn't say "human deliberation and action is pointless and ineffectual." Fatalism doesn't imply sitting by and letting things happen. That's defeatism, plain and simple. Utopianist 09:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"All that talk about "truth" is also meaningless and irrelevant".

It is mentioned in the SEP artivle by professional phuloosphers. What is your authority?1Z 20:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Philosophy is frequently nonsensical, arguing that we can learn about reality based on word games and semantics. All we learn from that is the structure of language, or a tautology. The whole argument that if God knows the future, then it's inevitable, is a fallacy. Knowledge or prediction does not imply inevitability. Utopianist 22:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

That is clearly your personal POV. You have no right to amend the article to match. 1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"I do not see defeatism as a corollary to fatalism or a consequence of it".

What you "see" is your own personal POV. It does not entitle you to remove other POV's from the article. If you think the article is unbalanced, add material putting forward the other POV, don't censor what is there.1Z 20:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a neutral POV. Find me some fatalists who say the idle argument is a credible reason for believing in fatalism. You deep-linked the article at Stanford and created a very distorted idea of the idle argument's importance and relevance. Read the first paragraph and inform your views based on the basic definition of fatalism. The idle-argument is a straw man. It does not follow from the basic definition of fatalism that one believe it's pointless to DO anything or THINK about anything. The idle argument is not a credible justification of fatalism. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone else who endorses it. In fact, it's easy to find arguments that debunk it. Utopianist 23:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"It's a neutral POV."

Obviously not, since some people disagree.1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

If these interpretations are indeed historical consensus, please cite sources in support. Take another claim, "Fatalists think that even if you could change the present or the past, the future would still be the same." Why would fatalists even consider that you could change the present/past in the first place? If they did assume that, then they would have to grant the spontaneity of the future as well. Please provide reliable sources that fatalism is as forward-looking as this sentence claims. All content should be WP:NPOV. You have just admitted that your additions are POV, so adding opposite POVs won't help. It is policy to "censor" POV. The lack of reliable sources is key here. The onus is not on others to find sources to disprove you, but on you to back up your content. Pomte 20:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"Please cite sources in support".

The sources in the original article supported the claim,

The article at Stanford says "Fatalism is the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do." That is hardly consistent with your contentious definition of fatalism. You are over-emphasizing one discredited argument and its conclusions. The idle-argument is not a necessary component of fatalism. It's ONE argument out of hundreds. In fact, it has very little in common with the strict definition of fatalism as believing that events are inevitable. You should not emphasize the idle argument as if it's the definitive argument or conclusion of fatalism. It's merely a straw-man or tangential issues to the topic of fatalism. Utopianist 22:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"Why would fatalists even consider that you could change the present/past in the first place"

Not relevant. The antecdent of a hypothetical propostion does not have to be true.

Fatalists believe that the past, present, and future are inevitable. That does not mean they believe human action or deliberation is irrelevant and pointless, as you have suggested. That is obviously your own POV, because it contradicts the source cited at Stanford. I'm a fatalist and I don't believe that human action is irrelevant, because things will HAPPEN, "despite causality" to use your words. That is a contentious definition of and argument for fatalism. It's a tangential issue to fatalism and a misguided straw man. Utopianist 23:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not "my" suggestion. You have still not explained why your statements about the beliefs of fatalists are more authorative than those of professional philosophers.1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You have just admitted that your additions are POV,

No. And all I have added is a paragraph emphasising soemthign that was already impplicit. I did not write the original article.

What you have emphasized is not implicit to fatalism or the original article. It's ONE argument and has been widely discredited by fatalist and non-fatalist philosophers. Deep-linking an article about fatalism shows that your position is biased. You should start with the agreed on definition of fatalism from a dictionary, then start at the BEGINNING of the article, not deep-link into it. The beginning of the Stanford article completely brushes aside arguments based on science and says it's only going to discuss logical or metaphysical arguments. The first paragraph of that article is also inconsistent with the idea that human action and deliberation is pointless. That is not a necessary argument for fatalism or a conclusion of it. Utopianist 22:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"You have just admitted that your additions are POV, so adding opposite POVs won't help."

NPOV means citing all POV's with significant support, so it does help.

The orginal article was appropriately sourced.1Z 21:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Deep-linking is not an appropriate means of citing a source. Writing 5 paragraphs about one straw man argument and some obscure philosophical issues is a distortion of the whole topic. It's not at all neutral or appropriately sourced. I suggest you read up on fatalism and tone down considerably any talk about the idle-argument, which is NOT a necessary or implied component of fatalism. Utopianist 22:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The second revision of the 15th of Feb was had appropriate external refs, it ws not "deep linked".1Z 14:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Towards an Understanding of Fatalism

Here is my justification for fatalism. "We can't change the past. We can't change the present. The future hasn't happened. It's nonsensical to say that we can "change" the future. Human actions and deliberation have important effects, but we can't show that they involve free will. It's easier to assume that everything is inevitable. Free will is superfluous." Utopianist 00:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs, And for keeping them out of the article.1Z 14:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theological fatalism

I'm not sure if you'd want to merge these necessarily, but they are obviously related (and did not link to one another). --24.57.157.81 01:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French wikipedia article

The article on fatalism on the french wikipedia (entitled 'fatalisme') is labelled as an "article de qualité" - I'm a novice at this stuff so what I want to know is how do I go about using it as a source/shamelessly copying it? Julian Roberts 08:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)