Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Deadwood episodes

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[edit] List of Deadwood episodes

After expanding the lead, summaries and fair use rationale for each episode I believe this article is a potential featured list. In line with critera it is useful, well laid out in accordance with other featured lists and complete. Qjuad 02:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Oh, yeah. Self nom and support Qjuad 13:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - I like it. I like being able to randomly pick any image and find a fair use rationale for it. I haven't gone through every image, but I've clicked about 10 of them and they had fair use rationales, so I was pleased (it's something that's easily overlooked). But, I didn't find any for the DVD covers. They need them just like the screenshots do. Since those are copyrighted I like all the plot summaries kept to a decent size. The individual episodes seem nothing more than expanded plots, but that doesn't matter here. Also, the last paragraph, that talks about Paramount having ownership of Region 2 DVDs and that being the reason why the extra information from Region 1 isn't on them, that needs a source. It comes across as original research because it appears to be drawing conclusions.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the offending paragraph (outside of a forum post from a cast member, there is no reliable source for it) and updated the fair use rationale for the DVD covers. Qjuad 03:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Support - I give the article my support. The lead is pretty much straight forward and to the point. I think the only thing that I might tweak would be the line about its pilot. Every show's pilot is called "pilot"; I think it would be fine to just say "The show first aired on ..... in the US". Unless it first aired as a movie, like The Incredible Hulk (1978 TV series) where the pilot was really a 2 hour made-for-TV movie originally, then i don't think it needs mentioning. Other than that, great job.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose excessive fair use images. It is entirely possible to have a Featured List without images for very single episode (e.g. List of Dad's Army episodes, List of The Simpsons episodes). Tompw (talk) 10:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to object, because it's also possible to have one that has an image for every episode. See List of South Park episodes.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I also object; many other featured articles, including the aformentioned List of South Park episodes and List of The Sopranos episodes have images. Qjuad 05:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Qjuad is right. Also, your comparison of this to The Simpsons is inappropriate—it has a separate article for each season, and those have screenshots like this and many other lists of episodes. Cliff smith 16:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support just as with the List of The Sopranos episodes page which is now Featured Article status, Qjuad has done an excellent job in shaping up and improving the article to FA standards. I give my support fully. Sfufan2005 14:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support per Sfufan; just like back at the LOE for The Sopranos, yet another job well done. Cliff smith 03:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support This article already does all the things I usually request when I object. Jay32183 02:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support: Great job! -- Underneath-it-All 22:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per excessive use of fair use images. Simpsons and South Park are featured lists just because they came way before WP got serious about fair use. There is no need to have more such "offenders". Renata 00:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems you are proceeding with a one person vendetta of opposing any lists of television shows, especially those that have images or colors. But I don't see you bringing the fight to the very small list of featured television shows that are in opposition of your opinion. But that is neither here nor there, as this is a discussion about this list. Every image has a fair use rationale, and there isn't even a remote opportunity to get "free images" for such things as they are screencaptures of episodes. Since this particular list has little synopses of each episode it can be nice to have an image to illustrate the show. If someone has never seen the show (like myself) then it is beneficial to know what it looks like. Since you cannot get "free images" for such a thing, then saying "oppose on the grounds of too many fair use images" should really read "oppose because it has images".  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Please refrain from personal attacks. Tompw (talk) 17:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The objection is based on a gross misinterpretation of FUC#3. The limiting of fair use images does not mean there cannot be more than a certain number, it's there can't be multiple unfree images serving the same purpose. Each episode is unique, therefore each image serves a different purpose. Renata has made this objection before, and it has been ignored before. Jay32183 00:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No-one's objections ever get "ignored", and excessive use of fair use images hasbeen a reason to fail a candidate for FL. Further, please refrain from personal attacks. Tompw

Such use of fair use images not only violates WP:FUC #3 & #8, but also Wikimedia Foundation resolution that says: Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to ... complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works.[1] Having 50 fair use images on a page is nowhere near "narrow limits." Renata 12:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

(#8) is a subjective call. If many editors believe that the use of these "50 fair use" do contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text, then there is nothing wrong. Wikipedia does not provide a set limit to fair use images in an article, especially when dealing with a list of episodes article. Since Wiki doesn't say, "oh you can have 3 FU images, but not 5, maybe you can have 4", then (#3) is also a subjective call. It's based on what the article is illustrating, and how easily one could come across free images for that article. Free images for a television article are probably 100% impossible, unless the owners decide they dont' want the show anymore and released it into the public domain.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

My sentiments echo both Jay and Bignole. Qjuad 16:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

(Unindent). Yes, each episode is unique, and each image's inclusion is definately be justified in an article on the relevant episode. However, we are dealinf with the *list* of episodes. WP:FUC #8 states "The material must contribute significantly to the article". As there are thirty-six such images, none of them can be held to contribute significantly to the list. Further, #3 states "The amount of copyrighted work used should be as little as possible". It is possible to have a list of television episodes without screenshots, and still be a featured list. Tompw (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Once you recognize the case as unique you can't base your argument on a different case. Just because one list doesn't need image does not mean this is the same case. If you have a problem with any particular image though, please bring it up. There is no absolute number that cannot be exceeded though. Jay32183

Yes, its true that a list of television episodes can be featured without images; but it is not necessary. Each image highlights an episode and a key moment therein (I honestly don't see how "none of them can be held to contribute"). Until the foundation decrees that television images should not be used, I don't see why they should be removed at all. Qjuad 17:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

First, I was hardly personally attacking Renata, I was making a personal observation based on their recent edits to other lists of articles and their comments on another users page. I didn't call them a name, nor did I attack their conviction or character. It's about subjectiveness. Saying it doesn't "significantly contribute to an article", is the same as saying it just violates this guideline, or it's unencyclopedic, or not notable. The arguments don't even make sense. Citing FUC, and then saying there are too many FU images, is not the same thing. FUC is the criteria for an image to be classified as fair use, not the criteria for how many images you can have. Almost all of the images are used on both the list page and the individual episode pages. Those that aren't on both are not because the individual episode pages do not exist (here's to praying that never do, most indy ep pages don't support themselves as articles). What constitutes "significant contribution to the article"? According to the bullet, it must "identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text". I don't see too many images that don't illustrate what the little synopses are saying. But I haven't seen the show so I can't verify every single image with the plot, but some are rather obvious. It's a subjective call on whether to include the images or not. If there is a summary of the plots, it may be good to provide an illustration of that, for better clarification. Again, it's my contention that the number of fair use images is a subjective call based on the article.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support. Well done! Everything looks terrific! RyguyMN 04:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)