Talk:Ferdinand Porsche

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How is Porsche pronounced? Is his surname French alike? Where is an accent - on first o or on the last e? Best regards. --XJamRastafire 00:52 Sep 9, 2002 (UTC)

I would say Pohrzje NL Buttonfreak 17:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

To the anon IP who insists on putting in a sentence and link about Erwin Komenda - yes, there is a case that Komenda gets too little credit and Porsche gets too much credit for the design of several cars. However, Ferdinand Porsche's page is not the right place to go into that. It is appropriate to mention it on the Porsche page, and the pages of the cars he designed or helped design.

This is, by the way, a common situation. The leader of the design team gets all the credit even if much or all of the work is actually done by someone they employ. The same is true for many industrial designers (much of the work attributed to Raymond Loewy, for example, involved no pencil-to-paper on the part of Raymond; employees did all the work, the boss just chose out of possibilities presented to him and gave direction)

--Morven 16:54, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I can agree that the Komenda reference probably does not belong here. The dispute about the development is with the son rather than the father.

Still, under the circumstances, making the statement that Ferry was the developer is a disputed fact that invites a claim by the opposing camp. I have therefore changed "developer" to "eponym", since there is at least no apparent dispute about the source of the automobile's name. This maintains the familial link with the vehicle without getting into the substantive dispute at the wrong place. ☮ Eclecticology

18:09, 2003 Oct 28 (UTC)

Thanks, that may at least defuse things a little.

My personal thought is that if this is to get any mention on Ferdinand or Ferry Porsche's page the text should relate to them directly, rather than being the same cut and paste sentence.

Mentioning that Ferdinand Porsche gets most of the popular credit for a lot of things that were actually as much or more a product of his employees, and pointing out that this is common practice in the design industry -- the boss gets the credit -- would be a bit more NPOV. Mentioning Komenda as one of those who gets overlooked in favor of the boss would be OK for me too.

--Morven 22:46, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Before I get any further on this subject, I would like clarificaton about the relative roles of Ferdinand and Ferry in this issue. I would like to see the fact of Ferdinand's univolvement nailed down before I approach the matter of Ferry, or before I try to address the simple revert battle now going on here.

The bulk of the story clearly belongs on the Komenda page. A one-sentence reference on the Ferry page saying that Ferry's claim is disputed is appropriate, and it should then refer those who want more on the story to the Komenda page. ☮ Eclecticology 01:57, 2003 Oct 29 (UTC)

This is the situation that I think is the truth, from my reading. When Ferdinand Porsche set up an independent engineering consultancy in Germany (in the 30s?) although he was the company founder and head engineer he employed a number of other engineers - the jobs were too big for just one man. Among the men he employed was Erwin Komenda, who had previously worked for Daimler-Benz and before that Steyr. Komenda was an expert in auto body construction and the engineering of pressed sheet metal bodywork, that I can determine.

Ferdinand Porsche's field of expertise seems to have been the mechanical aspects of vehicles, engines and the like, and the overall team direction. Komenda worked on the bodywork of the KDF-wagen (later to become the Beetle) among others. Komenda definitely worked on translating ideas for the basic shape into sheet metal and the detail design of the bodywork. Many of the plans and patent applications from this period are signed by Komenda and applied for with his name on them. Whether his were the first pencil sketches that were turned into auto bodies I am less sure. It's certainly possible that they were, though I am sure others in the team including Ferdinand Porsche had a lot of input.

JUST A THOUGHT:

Shouldn't this page consider division into chapters:

(i.e.) --Early Life --WWI --WWII

Porche is a fascinating man with a career so linked with the World Wars -- but that almost seems lost and in this bio. His involvement in WWII with the Nazis in both the Racing circuit and in the War effort really shaped his life and that that of the world. He represents a true place in history - so perhaps a chapter insersion could better work here. Just a suggestion. DH - 10/16/05

Postwar, Porsche's son Ferry and the other engineers who had worked for Ferdinand during the war came together (initially in Austria) to design cars. Ferdinand was imprisoned until 1949 for war crimes relating to the use of slave labor in projects he worked on.

Between them, a car was designed that became the Porsche 356. Komenda played a big part in this. It would be incorrect to say that he was the designer, per se, because he only worked on the bodywork. However, its construction was his, and probably much of its styling. He also worked in a similar capacity for later Porsche cars.

What I think needs to be done is to write more about Ferdinand's consultancy and Ferry's postwar sports car company so Komenda can be placed in his proper context. WHen part of a larger article it will seem less 'heavy'.

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Contents 1 Protected 2 German/Austrian 3 Nazi Stuff 4 Where is the WWII coverage? 5 Porsche Czech?

[edit] Protected

In this case, it's rather difficult to revert to a pre-edit-war version. Since there's no getting around the fact that I agree with Wik that the link should not be included, I have protected the page on a version including the link, to avoid the perception of bias.

I've seen both Wik and Lir resort to edit wars (not infrequently with each other), and there's something you both need to understand: edit wars are bad, futile, pointless, immature, and a breach of Wikiquette. Use the Talk page already, will you? -- Cyan 02:28, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Wik makes personal attacks against me; and refues to discuss things with me. Lirath Q. Pynnor

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If Kommenda and Porsche worked together, then there should be a see also from this page to that of Kommenda's. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Some context around the link would make that clear. Having the link as a "see also" at the bottom gives it an emphasis that isn't so good. -- Cyan 18:09, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

If you want to add context, you might as well write a paragraph in the main article; which explicitly describes their relationship. In the meantime, a see also is an indicator that there is some sort of relationship -- I don't see how it gives any emphasis, its more of a de-emphasis since it seems to indicate that the relationship is such that nobody has seen fit to actually write about it. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Perhaps it's fairer to say "gave", rather than "gives". I believe Morven said something about that link having been posted on every article having to do with Porsche. That's the emphasis I was talking about. -- Cyan 21:17, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, thats an issue for those pages. Komenda should not be linked from every article having to do with Porsche; but, he should definitely be linked from this page, and the page regarding the Porsche Company; because, he was Porsche's chief engineer. He deserves mention here, just as Cheney deserves mention at the GW Bush page. Lirath Q. Pynnor

This is all just spam by Komenda's granddaughter, Iris Steineck, who is acting like Daniel C. Boyer. Most of the references to Komenda on the web are also planted by her. Any biography of Porsche not influenced by her will show that Komenda was just one of many people on his staff. Karl Rabe was chief engineer, not Komenda, who was just responsible for the body design, and I don't see why this should be considered more important than the other departments. Either all those people should be mentioned or none. --Wik 22:45, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)

Mentioning all of them of importance would probably be a good idea. Iris Steinenk does have a good point that ascribing all the work of Porsche-the-company to Porsche-the-man is inaccurate, and a more detailed article would satisfy that criticism and be more accurate and informative besides. --Morven 22:52, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hello Wik, thanks for fixing my spelling errors. I just shouldn't write articles that early in the morning, with eyes still half closed. -- JeLuF 19:46, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Dear Authors,

Please note: Ferdinand Porsche joined the company of Ludwig Lohner and not Jacob Lohner. I think the wording should be corrected accordingly. See http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.l/l826666.htm

Please note: Disregard this: It is the same company.

Regards, --Millisits 23:06, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] German/Austrian

There is a lot of confusion in this page. Then it is German, then it is Austrian.

According to al sources I have, Porsche is an Austrian, so he should be listed as an Austrian inventor, not German. Some of the cars he made were made in Germany, these are German cars. Some of them were made in Austria (Austria-Hunagary) and should be called Austrian. My sources tell he worked for Lohner, Austro-Daimler of Austria and for Daimler-Benz, Zündapp, NSU, KdF (later to be Volkswagen) and Porsche (though initially set up in Gmünd, Austria). NL Buttonfreak 17:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi Stuff

I removed the "Nazi Leader" and "SS" categories, until someone can proof that he was either enlisted in SS or that he took any active role in the Third Reich other than that of a automotive engineer.

Jack O'Neill 05:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where is the WWII coverage?

It strikes me as odd that one of the most highly regarded engineers of German tanks and tank destroyers gets so little attention paid to his WWII designs such as the Tiger, Tiger II and Elephant. If anyone has any sourcable material to add to this neglected era of his life would they please do so? NeoFreak 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Porsche Czech?

According to the German Wikipedia he was Austrian. Since he was born in Austria-Hungary that seems logical to me and I'll change that now. One could rather argue whether he considered himself as German or Austrian, but to call him a Czech is just ridicoulous.--217.85.73.92 20:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What about Bohemian? To call him a Czech is as ridiculous as calling him German or Austrian. Ethnicity does not matter, at that time, you could probably choose to call yourself German or Austrian or Czech. Remember Masaryk considered himself Czech, while his mother was german-speaking and his father from Slovakia. 131.188.24.10 22:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes his birth place is in the modern day Czech Republic but because that country did not exist at the time being part of the Austo-Hungarian Empire that makes him Austrian. I'm not sure what his complete ethnic background was but I think it would be best to refer to him as an Austrian as that was, if I recall correctly, what he considered himself to be. NeoFreak 15:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC)