Talk:Final Solution

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An event mentioned in this article is a July 31 selected anniversary

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Contents 1 Hess 2 Community portal? 3 Psychology of the Final Solution 4 Forced migration 5 The Final Solution 6 screaming 7 The "Jewish Question" 8 Clarification needed 9 Requested move 9.1 Voting 9.2 Discussion 10 Edit by 204.107.82.125 11 Merge? 12 Headers

[edit] Hess

Rudolf Hess had already flown to Britain and that's why he saved his life at Nuremberg. Am I right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.224.96.198 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 6 April 2004 (UTC)

Rudolf Hess was said to be in a mental institute in Abergavenney in wales —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.38.32 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Community portal?

I'm curious as to why is this listed under "Community portal"? I was redirected here from Final Solution (and Final Solution of the Jewish Question)? Mischief afoot perhaps? --dahamsta 01:10, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

- doesn't seem sane to me either Joolz 23:40, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Psychology of the Final Solution

Are there any Wikipedia pages that deal with the minds behind the Holocaust, from the common German on the street, to the average SS soldier, to the T-4 program "doctors," to Himmler, to Hitler himself?

• See below. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Forced migration

All documents and speeches referred to the "final solution" as a plan of forced migration. There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was such an "extermination plan".

Forced migration to where? -- Petri Krohn 00:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Forced migration of every Jew in Europe was merely the logistically impossible pipe dream of Nazi luminaries prior to 1941. The evolution of the plan of extermination was a direct result of the impossibility of the forced migration of over four million people in Europe alone. There is overwhelming documentary evidence that, after 1941, extermination was the Nazi panacea to the "question". -- Primaryspace 18:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: Migration was the original "solution". Hitler wanted the Jews deported, but the size of the population made it difficult logistically, and potentially devastating from an economic standpoint for any country(s) that accepted them. When that "solution" was not viable, the "final solution" was implemented.

The Wannasee Protocol seems to not be the source of the "final Solution" - of course if you read it.

"overwhelming documentary evidence" - finally I have found the source I have always wanted. By the way can you give links, etc to this evidence? Thank you very much!

[edit] The Final Solution

i am doing a research paper and im so confused right now i have no clue which information is which and im like so stressed out HELP ME email- baby_skittles_321@yahoo.com msn- missing_angel_321@yahoo.com -courtney

[edit] screaming

what does heinrich himmler and adolf hitler have to do with the Final Solution

Wikipedia is not really the forum to ask for homework help on a research paper, but, to give you a hint, Hitler ordered the Final Solution (the genocide of the Jews) sometime in 1941 and Himmler was one of the key officials in carrying it out. You can read the article, and the linked pages, for more information. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Well that is not verifiable, but your teacher probably wont have the knowledge or guts to give you less than an A.

[edit] The "Jewish Question"

I have redirected The Jewish Question and Jewish Question here. This article is about the so called "solution", but we would in fact need a separate article on the assumed question. The article should not study the "The Jewish Question", but the history of the term in it's use by the Nazis. Calling something in existence a "question" is a tool used by Hitler and previous demagogues to undermind the rights of the "questioned". -- Petri Krohn 00:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I've come here from Jewish Autonomous Oblast, so it was a bit o a suprise, I think there was also a "JQ" in many other countries. What the question was is elided by the circumlocution, but I think it was a customary style of the time, for example the Schleiswig-Holstein question of which Lord Palmerston, commented that only three people understood it "one is mad, one is dead, and I have forgotten." Rich Farmbrough 11:36, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Whether the 'Jewish Question' deserves an article on its own would depend on whether there is sufficient amount of material to justify it. However, this 'Jewish Question' or 'Jewish Problem' needs to be elaborated in this article as there is no explanation of what it is. It leaves readers in the dark as to why the German policy makers at that time viewed the problem to such an extent that requires such drastic measures. Also the statements, if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction , If the German people have to sacrifice 160,000 victims in yet another campaign in the east, then those responsible for this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives and if the combined forces of Judaism should again succeed in unleashing a world war, that would mean the end of the Jews in Europe. Readers will be asking, what does all these statements mean? Why and how did the German authorities at that time came to view that it is the forces of Judaism that caused both world wars. The article would be more complete if these statements were explained. (218.208.212.191 07:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)).

I've changed the redirects for "Jewish Question" and "The Jewish Question" to the Marx essay On the Jewish Question. There now also exists a link to that article at the top of this one. 82.23.255.111 12:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the redirect to a disambiguation page, Jewish Question, which also briefly describes the use of the term before the Nazis, and contains links to the Marx article as well.--Goodoldpolonius2 17:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification needed

The article is a bit repetitititious, perhaps suggesting a merge in its past... here are the start and end of the second paragraph. I'd clean the redundance up, but can someone tell me which of the figures is right? --Kizor 18:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Mass killings of over one million Jews occured before the plans of the Final Solution were fully implemented in 1942, but it was only with the decision to eradicate the entire Jewish population that the extermination camps were built and industrialized mass slaughter of Jews began in earnest. [...] By spring of 1942, Operation Reinhard began the systematic extermination of the Jews, although hundreds of thousands had already been killed by death squads and in mass pogroms."

"which of the figures are right" - well none of them are right, but don't let that stop you.

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Edit by 204.107.82.125

This edit may be genuine "evolution=nazism" fundamentalist idiocy, but I'm more inclined to suspect a troll or straightforward vandalism. Regardless, I removed it and restored the para the IP nuked (probably by accident, but who knows). I hope I didn't void anyone's edits. EdC 23:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

My memory says that Endlösung was the German term for what has become known as the Holocaust. Therefore AFAIK the Holocaust was the effectuation of the ideas presentaed as Endlösung. Shouldn't we merge the two articles and describing this more accurately? Nomen Nescio 12:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello Nomen, please read the definitions at the beginning of both articles. Their topics are quite different. Regards, gidonb 12:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, I see no difference in these statements:

• Endlösung German Nazis' plan to engage in systematic genocide against the European Jewish population during World War II.
• Holocaust the state-led systematic persecution and genocide of the Jews and other minority groups.

As I read it, and as I was taught, the Holocaust is the implementation of the Endlösung, but was not limited to Jews. Nomen Nescio 13:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Thanks for putting the definitions here. As you can see, Endlösung refers to the German government policies and only towards the Jews. The Holocaust here refers to the policy outcomes and impacts of Nazi ideology and Nazi/German/European hatred on Jews, Poles, Roma, homosexuals, communists, Jehova witnesses, disabled etcetera. The differences are threefold: the scale of the discussion (policy vs. social process, policies and mostly outcomes: the Holocaust), the affected populations (Jews vs. Jews, Poles, Roma and all others) and the geography (Germany vs. Germany occupied Europe and North Africa). Regards, gidonb 13:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree the current breakdown makes sense, particularly in terms of the scale of the discussion. There is plenty to say about the policies, and it's an active area of scholarly research, so it makes sense to have it separate from the main Holocaust article. --Delirium 13:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headers

This looks a bit jumbled, doesn't it? Shouldn't we split this blob of text up into seperate sections? -raylu^T 04:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

how can you have such a gigantic quote on the page without a citation - this is why wikipedia sucks!

This article is so full of speculation that it is almost stunning in its depth and breadth. It lacks citations - it will eventually have to ignore citations - that are absolutely not available and this late in history probably will never appear. Layer on layer of intrepretive reading/hoping almost makes a reader faint. Wouldn't it be better not to have this article than to have some future young scholar see it and start to search. Make believe it is a law of nature - something we assume without proof. Trying to prove everything leaves an awfully lot of loose threads - don't tempt a young thread puller.159.105.80.141 19:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)