Talk:First Evil

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There is absolutely no evidence that the First appeared as Joyce Summers during "Conversations with Dead People". For one thing, how can The First be in two places at once? How can The First be talking to Willow and Dawn at the same time? "Joyce" might have really been herself, or some rep of The Powers That Be.

The First can be anywhere it wants. The First is like an omnipresent being it is everywhere. So it can appear in two places at once.--NeilEvans 00:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"The First is the only "Big Bad" that is not killed off in the series (Besides Spike and Drusilla, who escaped Sunnydale because of an unlikely teamup with Buffy) because, as the essence of evil, it is an incorporeal being that cannot be physically harmed or destroyed."

Not true. Dark Willow is easily the big bad of Season 6 and she's still alive and kicking (or at least her true self) Chanlord 00:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

My edit summary meant to say: The First Evil is the official name. I have never watched an episode where any character referred to The First without the The. Steri 04:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

What's the source for the First's true form having to heads?.--Gonzalo84 19:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

So... if the First took Lilah's form so Wesley would get Faith out so they would oppose the Beast and JasDelia, then why make Caleb hire Debbie (the female convict) to kill Faith?--Gonzalo84 22:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The could always change its mind, it was never psychic. E.g. when it tried to get Angel to give into killing Buffy, but ehrn that failed just made him kill himself.

Although it's completely unclear if Lilah was Wesley's imagination or if she was The First, I'm guessing the writers had the former in mind. On a side note, I believe The First was not telling the truth when it claims that it brought Angel back Hell, if the First could bring back people from Hell, it would do so more often I believe that both his coming back and the snow was a result of the TPTB (and more specifically, Jasmine). -- Paxomen 17:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, we can't know the writer's intentions on the Lilah/Darla thing, but we can make our own assumptions based on the First's typical Modus Operandi (and there are similarities between the Angel appearances and the First's appearance in Amends). What I'm wondering about is this: why do people think that the season 7 appearance by Joyce is the First? The First doesn't typically do any of the things that Joyce does upon this appearance (e.g. smash things up, come up with cryptic messages like 'She won't choose you'). -- Jayunderscorezero

That was damn scary! Yeah, I'm always a bit puzzled by that? What the Hell was going on what was that demony-monster thing? -- Paxomen 11:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW, shouldn't this article maybe be called First_Evil_(Buffyverse)? I'm not sure of it, but I'd guess there are a lot of religious and philosophical "first evils" that could be mixed up with this one. It would certainly avoid unnecessary confusion and be more homogenous. --TheOtherStephan 22:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

OtherStephan, you must decide what is right :) Over at Wikipedia there was recently a discussion about naming conventions and conveniance vs uniformity. Final consensus was that all episodes keep their suffixes (Buffy episode)/(Angel episode), but that other articles only receive their suffix (Buffyverse) when it is neccessary to distinguish them from non-Buffyverse-related topics.--Paxomen 01:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 The First on Angel? 2 Picture 3 The First's claims 4 Conversations with Dead People

[edit] The First on Angel?

I removed the Angel episodes from the "Appearances" list, and the names of Julie Benz and Stephanie Romanov from the names of the actors who played the First Evil. The idea of Lilah/Darla being the First in "Salvage" and "Inside Out" is complete fan speculation, and not supported anywhere in the show. Sure, it's possible that Lilah was actually the First and planted the idea of breaking out Faith into Wesley's mind, but the logic is somewhat tortured considering the attack in the prison yard, the fact that there was now one more slayer out there to help Buffy in Sunnydale, etc. It's much more likely that "Lilah" was Wesley's hallucination and that he came up with the idea to break out Faith himself.

At no point does Jasmine ever mention that the First had tried to foil her plans. Steve DeKnight never says anything about the First in his "Inside Out" commentary, and so, until one of the writers mentions that there was a connection, this will always be an unsupported fan theory. --SHODAN 14:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Besides, if Lilah was the First and wanted to stop Jasmine, why bring in Faith at all? Why not just say, "Cordelia isn't really herself, watch out for her"? --SHODAN 15:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, good call on removing those from the official list of appearances. I personally believe that the Darla appearance at least was a genuine appearance by the First, however it is indeed not right to put what is ultimately speculation on the list of appearances. I do hope that no-one decides to remove the section on the speculation though. Jayunderscorezero 14:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the speculation should stay there, too. I personally think that neither of those appearances were the First, but enough fans hold the opposing view that it's worthy of being mentioned within the text. -- SHODAN 15:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem remains that in "Salvage" (4x13) before Lilah appears to Wesley in the basement, Faith gets attacked in prison with the same type of ritualistic knife used by the Harbingers of the First Evil. Although the logic of why the First would want Faith released can be debated, there's no doubt that the knife was used on purpose. Everything on screen is the responsibility of the director, so it's extremely unlikely that the same type of prop knife used frequently on a different show would appear in a prison hit, which would normally be accomplised with a shiv or some makeshift weapon. Furthermore the camera gets a good shot at the knife, so viewers of both series would connect the Potential killings with Faith's attempted assassination. As for why the producers didn't take credit for tying the shows together in this episode, it's pretty sloppily done, and producers rarely take credit for failure.--hypercritic 20:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

As for Darla's appearance in "Inside Out" (4x17), after Cordelia slices the girl's throat, Conner sees his mother's corpse. The First Evil has never shown the ability to alter someone's perception this way--it makes dead people appear, it doesn't make people seem to be other people.--hypercritic 20:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? It made Jonathan look all dead and corpsey. The CAN make the dead person look however it wants. The person just has to be dead. SO I don't get what you mean. --69.110.176.161

And it was able to look like Joyce Summers in Conversations with Dead People to scare Dawn --12.201.200.18

I don't think the section on Lilah and Darla can be salvaged. As the sign says, it violates Wikipedia policy on original research and verifiablity, and also that on Weasel Words to boot. It's an unsourced paragraph about what a vaguely-defined set of unnamed fans have apparently subjectively speculated on. It's no more notable than any of the thousands of other interpretations "some fans" might have. Not appropriate for an encyclopaedia.--Nalvage 18:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the paragraph about the First appearing in Angel. It's pure speculation, which doesn't belong here. CPitt76 03:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Could we have a picture somewhere down the page of the First's corporeal form, the one it took in the last episode of a giant serpent thing?

What? I don't remember The First ever taking corporeal form, and especially not a giant serpent thing.--NeilEvans 16:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh you know. In the last episode after he was disguised as the obnoxious principal.

Anon

The First was never the principal.--NeilEvans 16:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Really, are you sure? Because in the last episode he definately disguised himself as someone who did a big speech at this event at the school (I can't actually remember what as it's some years since I watched it) and then the sun set and he turned into a giant serpent and there was a big battle between the vampires and the Slayers. There actually used to be a picture of him in that form in the article.

Anon

Ok you mean The Mayor from season three and the episode you are refering to is Graduation Day, Part Two.--NeilEvans 16:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

YES, that's the one. Cheers.

Anon

Upon observing the two articles I realise my mistake. The Mayor was in fact the demon Olvikan, not the First and Graduation Day wasn't actually the last episode. Oh, well I do look a pillock, don't I?/! Anyway, on the subject of pictures, don't you think we should have a picture of the First in the demonic form it mentions in the article?

Anon

I've looked a the article and the demonic form the article refers to is already in the infobox on the right of the article at the top of the page.--NeilEvans 19:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? The one the article describes as having long, talon-like fingers and large horns? The one in the infobox at the top of the page just looks like pure energy to me.

Anon

yes that's definately the only form The First took apart from when is was assuming the forms of dead people.--NeilEvans 01:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Very well then. I'm sure you know what you're talking about more than I do.

[edit] The First's claims

"The First Evil is the source and embodiment of all that is evil."

Should that be changed to 'The First Evil claims itself to be the source and embodiment of all that is evil." After all, it was the First that made that claim to begin with. Buffy, Giles and the rest never actually verified that via independent sources.

I'm a little reluctant to take anything said by an evil being at face value. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.180.35.75 (talk) 13:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Conversations with Dead People

There's already debate about who actually appears to Dawn in Conversations with Dead People. This always confused me, but personally I believe it was the spirit of Joyce Summers. One reason is a demon/evil spirit was able to overpower her until Dawn performed the exorcism. The spirit was surrounded by a white light and dressed in a white gown(if I remember right), something usually associated with good spirits. There a later episode where she visits Buffy in a dream and gives the cryptic message "You won't win." or "You can't defeat evil." Plus, I just get the feeling that each dead person was supposed to be different. Also I think alot of people are trying to write every appearence of a deceased character off as the First. I don't believe in anyway that Darlas spirit was the first. I think it was the spirit of Darla trying to prevent her son from becoming evil like her. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.63.203.148 (talk) 10:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

I suppose that there is plenty of room for interpretation when it comes to that scene. However, I think that it is likely that the first is strongly involved in this situation. I don't believe it was the first specificially though. We know that the first cannot manipulate matter. However in this episode, the first writes on walls and moves furniture and cuts dawn. I think that it is far more likely that there are other spirits or forces that are being used by the first to torture dawn.

The spirit of joyce that appears to Dawn is likely the first. It seems that way because at the same time that this scene is happening, the first is also trying to shake buffy/spike/willow up. The timing is too convenient. Also, in the bible and other literature, we are told that the devil or demons often appear as 'angels of light'. Undoubtedly the writers know about this concept and are repeating it here. Jpittman 15:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm beginning to believe that this scene was just poor writing. The "Buffy will not choose you" thing is mentioned in the next few episodes and then disappears. I think it was subplot that became harder to work into the show, so they left fans to assume it was the First playing more mind games. It says that the woman who wrote the Dawn sequence reveals it's the First on DVD Commentary, but they also said Amebr Benson was unavailable. Amber Benson revealed in an interview she thought having the First appear as Tara was too cruel. Or something to that extent.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.63.201.84 (talk • contribs).

There's some ambiguity in the episode, but both Joss and Jane Espenson have since commented that it was meant to be the First. --Nalvage 11:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)