Talk:Florence Foster Jenkins

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Omitted name of play: Souvenir

Just saw a play by Stephen Temperley at the Berkshire Theater Festival in Stockbridge, Mass. It stars the wonderful Judy Kaye and Donald Coren, was seen in NYC at the York a year or so ago, and is set for Broadway in the fall. I don't think it will make it on the big stage, but it would be great in an off-B'way setting. It follows the bio given here in Wikipedia very closely, so I assume it's true to life. It takes a real singer to mimic the FFJ sound,and Kaye not only does it briliiantly, she gets a chance to sing in her own voice at the end of the show. Recommended for all FFJ fans. [[Nlipman]

The ???? is not only part of the title, it is an understatement... -- Someone else 03:02 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ah. My apologies. I'll put them back. RickK 03:06 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

My heart leapt on reading that a second CD (Even More Glory ...) of Madame Jenkins' art existed but I grieve to report that it doesn't — it was an April Fool hoax perpetrated by MusicWeb.co.uk.

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2002/May02/FFJ.htm

Wilus 10:30, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Singing ability? 2 Page rewritten 3 NPOV 4 Accuracy 5 Cosmé McMoon 6 Inspiration for Susan Alexander character in Citizen Kane 7 Canadian Premiere of Glorious!

[edit] Singing ability?

What was her actual vocal range? Wider or narrower than an average Jane? I know she sang terrible. But was she still a better singer than many of us? (I really don't think so. Heeeee!) -- Toytoy 04:38, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I think it quite inaccurate to characterize her range as limited. Though I haven't carefully plotted it out, she performs Der Holle Rache, which requires precisely two octaves, from the F above middle C to the F two octaves above. I presume she could sing lower than that low F - as even the highest sopranos inevitably can - which would make her range more than two octaves, quite good. If no one has any objections, I'm going to change that characterization soon. --George 03:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

If you actually listen to her recording of Der Holle Rache, she doesn't hit the high F. It's terrible. Dave Foster 04:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page rewritten

An anonymous user completely rewrote this page, removing a good deal of useful content while de-wikifying the article. You can see the last version of the page before the rewriting at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Florence_Foster_Jenkins&oldid=22663907. The two versions need to be compared and combined, but I don't have the time to do it right now. - EurekaLott 21:06, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I am rolling back the entire text back to the version mentioned above, on the grounds that the current version of the article is so poor that it is unreadable. Majts 11:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This page has numerous POV statements judging the talkent of FFJ. Stuff like "complete lack of singing ability", "From her recordings, it is apparent that Jenkins had little sense of pitch and rhythm and was barely capable of sustaining a note", "patent lack of ability", "well beyond her technical ability".

I know that FFJ's entire career was based on the fact that she was bad rather than good, and the article must express that fact. But the article should not express the opinion that she was bad, just like the Luciano Pavarotti article never says that he was good (these statements are left to the critics). Leave the criticism of her style in the mouths of the critics. See William Hung for another article about a bad singer, but without POV statements about his (lack of) abilities. --Staecker 13:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Added the NPOV tag to spur someone to address the above POV objections. --Cab88 06:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

errr, she was a bad singer. Terrible, in fact. You can't have an article about someone who is famous solely because of her bad singing without mentioning the fact. That's not POV - it's simply the fact of the matter. --Centauri 07:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the tag, which is ludicrous. She was a bad singer, it's why she was known, and there is no significant alternative view to be represented here. - Nunh-huh 10:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy

I am an operatic tenor myself, and I believe the opinions expressed about Madame Jenkins are more than slightly accurate. Perhaps you would be appeased if the wording of the article could be changed to "It is said that Mme. Jenkin's career was based entirely on her lack of talent" etcetera etcetera? Perhaps even quoting newspapers from the era which gave her the nickname of "The Mistress Of The Sliding Scale" and "The Diva of Din"

That's exactly what I mean. I don't personally dispute the accuracy of the POV, but it shouldn't be there nonetheless. --Staecker 11:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem at hand is that when referring to Florence Foster Jenkins, one cannot accurately portray the very factor that makes her career unique without portraying the dichotomy between her actual performance and the standards of professional operatic performance. The accurate portrayal of this person is the fact that she did not sing well but nonetheless managed to captivate a large fan-based based *precisely* on her lack of talent. Her own accompanist, Cosme McMoon, is interviewed at the end of the CD "The Muse Surmounted", where he eloquently explains the Foster Jenkins phenomenon and the contrast between singer and audience: Foster Jenkins saw herself as the greatest diva of all time despite aural evidence to the contrary, whereas the public saw her as an incredibly amusing vaudeville act. Jenkins was famous for playing her infamous "Der Holle Rache" recording side by side with famous soprano renditions of it at parties, and then passing little note sheets to her guests and asking which of these recordings were better. The guests, usually humoring Jenkins, chose her... very identifiable recording. Once, however, one of her guests (as mentioned by Cosme Mcmoon in his interview) chose another soprano's recording, to which Jenkins replied: "My dear, I believe you are wrong. My voice is so much fuller than hers!" The character of Florence Foster Jenkins fails to be explained accurately without this. It is, in fact, not a violation of Wikipedia's terms because operatic appraisal is not necessarily a subjective discipline as many would have it: By fact alone: 1) Florence Foster Jenkin's technique was completely inadequate for her intended profession, and in fact incomplete. It failed to produce the desired vocal quality and it was obvious that her vocal production was strained and stressed, as evidenced by her screech-like tones which indicated an improper tension of the throat and lack of appogio. She had the innate range to be a colorattura soprano, but she never had the proper trainning. 2) Florence Foster Jenkin's inner ear was entirely defective: she could not sing in pitch, and that is not a subjective assesment or an opinion, but fact: compare her Queen of the Night aria with any other soprano's, and you will see how accurate the nickname "Diva of the Sliding Scale" was. She couldn't even hit the same staccato note twice, but instead progressively descended in pitch (another point of evidence that shows improper apoggio) 3) Florence Foster Jenkin's stage presence was more farsical than anything, coming out in such costumes as "The Angel of Inspiration", a concoction of tulle and schiffon complete with wings and starry tiara, and her famous "Spanish Peasant" with mantilla and carnations basket (said flowerrs she would throw into the audience every time she sang "Clavelitos"). Her public would reportedly erupt into applause in order to mask the hysterical laughter that would surge from these displays. By sterilizing the article into bare bones would, in fact, betray Wikipedia's desire for accurate portrayal. One cannot speak of Florence Foster Jenkins without referring to how the world saw her at the time-- a point of view which remains to this day, not unlike a certain American Idol 'singer' who became famous for his inability to sing in pitch, or at all. It is not by whim alone that he was referred to as suffering from "Florence Foster Jenkins Syndrome" by certain singers. --Same opera singer as above

The Idol point is perfect- that's why I linked to William Hung above. Read that article for a great example of how this kind of subject should be treated. We should refer to "how the world saw her at the time" by using their words, not ours. I have classical vocal training myself, and I will admit that there are some objective characteristics of her performance as you point out that can be presented without expressing a POV. We can include these, but actual sourced commentary would be better. I don't want to "sterilize" the article, I just want to put the POV in the mouth of real sources, rather than in the mouth of Wikipedia itself. I think a reference to the Cosme McMoon material you cited would be great. --Staecker 23:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand. The difficulty here, however, is tracking down said commentary. It is not likely to be available in depth (outside of a few citations on the internet) except in the literature specially dedicate to F.F.J -Same tenor, aye.

The "neutrality" warning is ludicrous. The only person who thought Ms. Jenkins could sing was Ms. Jenkins. Pretending otherwise is not "neutrality" and pretending that there is any dispute over her singing ability is misleading. - Nunh-huh 06:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

That's simply a wrong understanding of what NPOV means. It's totally irrelevant whether or not she could sing. The point is, the article should not assert that she couldn't sing- even if it was a majority viewpoint. The article may (and obviously should) state that this was a majority viewpoint, and a viewpoint that essentially nobody disagreed with. But the article must not say that the viewpoint was correct. Peep this from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.

So let's not debate anymore whether or not FFJ could sing. That's not the point. --Staecker 13:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

It is precisely the point, however, that no one whose opinion matters ever debated the fact that she sang badly. NPOV requires that we present this fact, and not distort the situation by pretending that there was someone somewhere sometime who disented from the rest of the known universe. A viewpoint that is universally held is concensus truth. The NPOV of wikipedia, if you read it, results in the inclusions of opinions [1] if they have any importance [2] in roughly the proportion of, and characterized by the relative numbers of those holding these positions. We have so done so in this article. No one says she is a good singer; everyone says she is bad to the point of being amusing. Until a sect devoted to the unearthly beauty of her song is able to proseletive and coerce others to join them, we remain neutral by presenting things just as they are. - Nunh-huh 14:11, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

This still sounds confused to me. What I am advocating is exactly that we do present the fact that "no one whose opinion matters ever debated the fact that she sang badly". What we must not do is to say that this majority POV is the truth. Why oh why can't this one by like William Hung? I don't mean to harp on it, but that style is exactly what I want. Staecker 17:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry you're confused, but NPOV does not mean generate dispute where there is none. "Badly" is necessarily the judgement of other people, in this case universally held. Something that is universally held is as close to truth as we can get. This article is far more interesting and well-written than Hung's. Do you actually have a phrase in this article that you object to, or shall we eliminate your tag? - Nunh-huh 00:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

OK- let's take a breather. I know that nobody disputes FFJ's badness. I don't think that the article should claim or imply that the matter is disputed (because it's not). See my first post here (under the section called "NPOV") for the particular phrases that I don't like. It's unfortunate that the discussion has been retitled "Accuracy," because really I don't dispute the accuracy of the claim that FFJ sings badly. My whole point is that statements claiming FFJ's badness should occur in sourced quotations, rather than in the voice of the article itself. What I like about the Hung article is that, if you read carefully, you'll notice that the article never says that he's a bad singer. It puts the POV where it belongs: in quotations. --Staecker 01:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You put a tag on the article disputing its "neutrality". This article is perfectly neutral, even in Wikipedia's definition of the term: It gives all sides of any dispute, in proportion to the number of people on each side, and does not take any sides on disputed questions. It conveys facts with which no one disagrees. You call these facts "POV" despite the fact there is no opposing "view". Wikipedia doesn't need to put its facts in quotes: it needs to attribute opinions which someone disputes, not facts which no one disputes. Again I ask: do you actually have a phrase in this article that you object to? - Nunh-huh 04:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes I do have specific phrases that I object to- it's above in my post dated October 22. To call someone a bad singer is a value judgement. Even if there is no dissent, it's still an aesthetic point of view. Whether or not the viewpoint is disputed is irrelevant- it's still based on a value judgement, which is culturally motivated and subjective (although I admit some objectivity as in above comments of Oct 27). See my quote above from NPOV policy: our job is not to support POVs in proportion to their public support, but to present all viewpoints (in this case there is only one), and to support no POV at all. Maybe your upbringing is different from mine, but I have a very hard time believing that consensus POVs should be regarded as facts. That's simply bad documenting. --Staecker 12:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I rather doubt that we need refer to our respective upbringings. You have a problem with the definition of "fact", and Wikipedia is not the place to solve it. Puerile philosophical arguments are not going to improve this article. The phrases you refer back to, then, are:

• [1] "complete lack of singing ability"

you've truncated this: what is actually said is that she "became famous" for her lack of singing ability, which is a statement of fact. It is no different from what you've written yourself, that "FFJ's entire career was based on the fact that she was bad rather than good".

• [2] "From her recordings, it is apparent that Jenkins had little sense of pitch and rhythm and was barely capable of sustaining a note"

these again are facts, not judgments

• [3] "patent lack of ability"

she did indeed lack ability; she in fact could not not sing the arias

• [4] "well beyond her technical ability".

again, an undisputed fact.

The words "bad singer" appear nowhere in the article, though they would be justifiable. All facts are "value judgements". You fundamentally misunderstand our purpose here. We are here to communicate information. We don't exist in order for you to explore your philosophical difficulties with fact and objectivity. Put another way: "good singing" is, precisely, what people have decided good singing is, and "bad singing" is exactly what people believe it to be. If there were any disagreement about it, we'd report it. there isn't. You seem to believe that there can be no aesthetic facts - that's an interesting point of view. Unfortunately, we're here to convey information, and the adoption of your point of view - that aesthetic judgments, even when held universally, are somehow opinions rather than fact - would make writing an encyclopedia impossible. - Nunh-huh 04:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems like we understand each other pretty well, and simply disagree. I really didn't mean to get into a silly philosophical debate (which I agree this has become)- I just didn't expect you to disagree in the way you did. I do indeed believe that there are no "aesthetic facts"... I don't think that an encyclopedia is the place for that sort of thing. That's why we don't say in an encyclopedia that Ice cream is yummy, sunsets are beautiful, etc. I don't think that this at all limits our ability to write an encyclopedia. Jimbo says:

Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so.

I think we should be honest that what we're presenting here is consensus POV (what everybody believes), rather than objectively measurable fact (what is so). Using the phrase "undispted fact" is just a smokescreen- it presupposes that facts have something to do with "lack of dispute", which is the very center of our disagreement.

I think we've both said all we need to. Without any other voices in the discussion, it's hard to measure consensus on this. If you're still not convinced (heh), you may remove the NPOV tag and I'll try not to frequent this page any more. My strong objection is noted here, for what that's worth. Staecker 14:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, that's a fair enough offer. I would ask you to consider this question, though: Is it more informative to know that "Critic X said 'sounds like nails on a chalkboard', critic Y said 'makes me cry for a merciful death'" and critic Z said 'she sings like a cat in heat', or to know that everyone agrees she sang badly? - Nunh-huh 15:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Did I say I wasn't watching anymore? Sorry- couldn't resist. One of the four statements you mention is unverifiable. The other three are verifiable, so I go with them. I suppose you already knew my answer though. Better luck to us both next time- Staecker 16:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe a clue to the real goings-on was provided my Madame Jenkins herself, who once said "Many have said that I cannot sing, but nobody can say that I did not sing." It was not her inability to sing that brought her fame, but rather the enthusiasm, verve, elan, gusto with which she rendered her performances. She truly believed that she was a great singer, and talented or not, she was a great singer, if this could be defined as a singer who elicits an emotional response from the audience. She truly did so.

[edit] Cosmé McMoon

On the Helpdesk mailing list, we got a message from someone claiming that Cosmé McMoon was his/her great uncle, and that this was his real name (although other family members call themselves McMunn rather than McMoon). I have therefore removed the statement that Cosmé McMoon is a pseudonym. - Andre Engels 07:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Cosme McMoon and Edwin McArthur both had the unenviable task of accompanying Florence Foster Jenkins, but they were unquestionably two different men. Niether is a pseudonym. [1] - Nunh-huh 07:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

According to a radio interview which can be read at [2], Cosme McMoon was indeed Edwin McArthur.Bogframe

That information is in error. They were two different people. During Jenkins' early concerts both appeared on the same stage, McArthur accompanying her and McMoon playing piano solos. In addition a search of the New York Times online reveals that McMoon played frequent solo recitals in the 1930's, generally to mediocre reviews. Saxophobia 04:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration for Susan Alexander character in Citizen Kane

Does anyone know if Florence Foster Jenkins was the inspiration for Susan Alexander character (bad opera singer) in Citizen Kane?

I'm not aware of any evidence to prove it, but the obvious influence has always seemed pretty clear to me. --Centauri 00:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Possibly some influence, but the more direct inspiration was actress Marion Davies. Changing the profession from movie actress to opera singer allowed for greater dramatics, plus the setting of a grand opera house.Saxophobia 03:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian Premiere of Glorious!

I went to see the current production of Glorious! in Calgary last night. And very entertaining it was too. The audience seemed to enjoy it thoroughly (as did I). Good story, funny writing, good cast, super sets. What more could you ask for! However one thing that caught my eye was the programme. It contains a short biography and credits this article in Wikipedia with a reference. Gosh! -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)