Talk:Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor

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Selected on Template:March 18 selected anniversaries (may be in HTML comment)

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He also captured recaptured Jerusalem in the crusades of his time, due to political machinations and established a muslim city in italy I think, but I don't have the sources handy to check up on the details.

Actually he negotiated with the emir of Egypt to get Jerusalem. He got a deal that he couldt keep Jerusalem for 10 years, and as such he did "free" Jerusalem without the use of arms. He had good relations with the muslims (Sicily his kingdom, had a minor muslim population). He also hosted Jews and muslim scientists and artsists at his court.

This genealogical table is not very informative: i think it blinds the reader with all these colours. Can we get rid of it? MvHG 07:07, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I've restored the table, because I do find that it can be informative. If the colours are blinding, perhaps they could be toned down. Eclecticology 19:25, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 election as King of the Germans 2 can someone please review "Life"? 3 Heirs 4 Personality 5 Jerusalem 6 Summary 7 Parentage and children 8 Ambiguity 9 Angevin 10 Birth 11 Muslim views 12 "Ligurian Republic" 13 Two other clumsy phrases 14 King of... 15 Education 16 Former Catholics 17 Kings and Nobles illetterate in Frederic II time ? No 18 Typo? 19 Genocide and torture 20 Isabella, third wife 21 I made some changes 22 Physicians/Pharmacists 23 Trial by ordeal 24 Cultural depictions of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor 25 Children 26 The Catholic Encyclopedia is not exactly NPOV 27 Personality 28 Descendants

[edit] election as King of the Germans

We say Frederick was elected King of the Germans in 1211 at the Diet of Nuremberg. The generally excellent German Wikipedia article says December 9, 1212 in Mainz. Any citations for our version? or theirs? -- Jmabel 04:00, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

I've usually heard 1212. Not sure about location. I'll also look at the article, as you asked below, although I'm not sure how comprehensive my knowledge of Frederick II is. john k 22:32, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have fixed the prob in the german Article. There were many errors in "Personality". Frederick was elected in 1211 in absentia, but was elected again and crowned in 1212 (and crowned, with the rigth insignias, in 1215). Best wishes from Germany Benowar 18:05, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC) ps: Reference: Stürner, Friedrich II., vol. 1, p. 130 f. In english, i recommend "Abulafia, Frederick II, a medieval emperor" (good overview, but controversial).

[edit] can someone please review "Life"?

I've brought in a bunch of material from the German-language Wikipedia to the "Life" section. Some of it straight out contradicted some of ours; it seemed generally better researched, so I have generally followed it. Could someone who knows this period better than me have a general look through this and see if they think anything is not correct? I would not want to stake my life on the accuracy of some details of this article, although I think the general picture is correct. -- Jmabel 22:08, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

I've gone over it - it looks mostly right to me. The bit about 1211/1212 seems to be that he was elected in both (as well as in 1215). The bit about the epidemic when he wanted to go on crusade is true, as far as it goes, but conceals the fact that Frederick had been delaying for years his departure. I also put in considerably more detail on Frederick's involvement with the crusader state (I could probably put in somewhat more, from Runciman, but that might unbalance the article). john k 22:56, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Heirs

I've continued the translation into the section on heirs. I believe my translation is accurate, but I'm not sure all of the material I am translating should be trusted. I suspect that some matters are probably disputed by historians, and the German text, while generally well-researched, is not clear in its sourcing of particular facts. It definitely has some dubious links, such as the wrong Henry VII. In a few places, where I knew what was going on I've clarified, in others I'm not sure. General review would be in order. Also:

• Someone may want to add more links.
• There is surprisingly little here on his wives.
• Some of the place names may have English-language equivalents of which I am unaware.
• This article says without qualification that Frederick on his deathbed married Bianca Lancia. Our article on Manfred of Sicily says "Bianca Lancia... is reported on somewhat slender evidence to have been married to the emperor just before his death." Also, on several points, what we say here doesn't line up all that well with what was say in the article on Manfred. Someone who knows this period better than I should sort this out. In particular, (1) no mention there of the fate of his wife and child, and (2) judging by what is there, "continued - after initial attempts at reconciliation - Frederick's conflict with the Pope" seems a bit cursory.
• This article says Conrad I, Duke of Swabia "was publicly executed on the instructions of Charles I of Sicily". However, the article on Charles says "Manfred's defeat and death in battle were followed (1268) by the defeat and execution of his nephew Conradin..." Someone is confused, but who?

I'm afraid I'm rather ignorant on all this, just translating for the most part.

This article in general could do with a lot more sourcing. For example, what is the source of the statement that Frederick could read and write nine languages? It seems likely enough but is the sort of thing that ought to have a cited source. There's a good general set of references, but no way to relate the content of the article back to those sources.

In any event, I will continue the translation at my next opportunity. -- Jmabel 07:57, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

I do not know the source for the statement concerning Frederick's polyglotism, but I can verify it. Page 415 of Holy War - The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World by Karen Armstrong says of Frederick II that "[a]t a time when most people spoke at best only three languages, he spoke nine and wrote in seven" – the exact number of languages he could write is probably unknown. -- Itai 20:02, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I take it from your including a page number you have that at hand. Can you add that, with publication info, to the references and add an appropriate citiation in the article? Or if you just drop the publication info (publisher, place of publication, date, ideally ISBN too) here, I'll do it. -- Jmabel 00:02, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I have actually written the reference, pressed "Show preview", but then at to leave and neglected to press "Save page". Returning several hours afterward, I saw that you did it yourself. Oops. (By the way, I don't know if anybody has said it already, but your work on this article is most commendable.) -- Itai 22:25, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was looking for more information about Frederick II, and noticed a difference with my text and what is posted here as to the number of languages spoken by Frederick II. My text (The Western Experience, 8th Edition, Chambers et al.) says he spoke 'six' languages, not 'nine'. I haven't changed it because I don't wish to, but I thought I'd let you know. Tehmasp 19:54, August 09 2005

• • • Hi - off the top of my head I can rattle off Latin, German, French, Provençal, Arabic, Greek and then you could quite easily add three other forms of vulgar latin: Tuscan, Sicilian and Apulian (these three used predominantly in the Sicilian School of poetry, of which he was patron). Re his Arabic, I refer to this quote in Maalouf's "The Crusades through Arab Eyes": ... the emir Fakhr al-Din Ibn al-Shaykh...was amazed when he arrived in Palermo: yes, everything they said about Frederick was true. He spoke and wrote Arabic perfectly, he felt unconcealed admiration for Muslim civilization, and he had nothing but contempt for the barbarous West, especially for the pope of Rome. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'coz!) 04:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: his wives, the only one I know much about is Yolande of Jerusalem, who died in childbirth at the tender age of 16 (I believe - her mother had also died in childbirth in 1212, I think, and Yolande died in 1228). His third wife was a daughter of King John of England, and thus sister to both Henry III and to Richard of Cornwall, who got himself elected king after Frederick's death. Re: Bianca Lancia, I think our article on Manfred is more correct - I've never heard it said without qualification that the two were ever married. Re: Conradin, I'm not sure what's going on. He certainly shouldn't be called "Conrad I, Duke of Swabia" (Among other things, I suspect he was not the first Conrad to be duke of Swabia). But other than that, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Manfred was defeated and killed at Benevento in 1266. 2 years later, Conradin invades Italy with a German army. After initial success, he is defeated and captured by Charles at Tagliacozza, and shortly thereafter publicly executed in the marketplace at Naples on Charles's orders. john k 00:16, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Personality

Translated. Some of this is a bit redundant, internally and with the material above: someone may want to tighten it. Also, as with the previous section, it could possibly use more links. -- Jmabel 06:15, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that this section gives adequate weight to the extent of Frederick's departure from traditional religious views. In the view of at least some historians it would seem that his views were probably close to those of a modern athiest or agnostic:

His religious scepticism was notorious, and shocked Muslims as well as Christians. He joked at the 'ignorance' of God in commanding a land so infertile as Palestine to the Jews, he mocked at the sacraments, and took a pleasure in uttering blasphemies. According to Pope Gregory IX, he openly assserted that 'the world had been deceived by three men, Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed'

This quote is from "A History of Medieval Europe", 2nd Edition, R.H.C Davis, Professor Emertus of Medieval History at Univ. of Birmingham -- Bdrasin 1/11/2005 10:23 (PT)

Go for it, cite your source. I translated the bulk of this article from the German Wikipedia, so you might want to drop them a note, too. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:39, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Bdrasin, I mostly like what you did, except we now have "Many modern medievalists...Other scholars..." These are "weasel words". I gather that at least in the latter case, you have in mind either Davis or someone he quotes, so something like "Other scholars, such as R.H.C. Davis," would be more appropriate. And if you can cite someone on the other side as well, all the better. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:20, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

"According to Pope Gregory IX," - Uhm, are you aware of exactly what Pope Gregory IX thought of Frederick? Generally anything from the papacy regarding his religious beliefs should be treated as BEYOND suspect. - AD, Heidelberg, 2006

[edit] Jerusalem

The Barons of the Kingdom of Jerusalem did not recognize Frederick as King following his wife's death. Rather, they recognized his son Conrad as King, and Frederick as his regent. When Conrad came of age, they immediately kicked Frederick out as Regent (although, to be honest, he had not been effectively in control for his some time, his Bailli, Roger Filangieri, having been kicked out by the mid 1230s, and had thus only been a titular regent), and appointed their own (the Dowager Queen of Cyprus, who was next in line after Conrad)...Frederick certainly claimed the throne after 1228, but that claim was never actually recognized (Perhaps it was briefly recognized in the immediate aftermath of his crusade, but even then, it's unclear, since they indisputably did recognize him as regent). But Runciman points out at length how much weakened Frederick's position was by Yolande's death. So I'm not sure we should say without qualification that he continued as King after her death. He certainly claimed to be King. But, then, Edward III claimed to be King of France. The situation of an absent regent claiming the throne that rightfully belongs to his son is, though, a bizarre one, so it's unclear exactly how this should be dealt with. john k 07:30, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In view of that, I've changed this in the chart to say, "and alone or as regent for Conrad after her death". Sounds to me, though, like this merits an entire paragraph in the article, roughly what you just wrote. Do you want to take a shot at it, or should I edit your paragraph here and put it in the article? -- Jmabel 08:24, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to do it later today. I'll have a look at my Runciman to get the details straight. john k 17:03, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

From the article:

"...many of his contemporaries, because of his lifelong interest in Islam saw in him "the Hammer of Christianity", or at the very least a dissenter from Christendom. The unanimous view of modern medievalists is that this is false. Frederick understood himself as a Christian monarch, but the sense of a Byzantine emperor, thus as God's Viceroy on earth. "

Is this really a unanimous view? I have cited one appairently legitimate historian who seems to hold the view that Frederick was contemptuous of all religeous beliefs, including (especially?) Christianity; see discussion of Personality section. I'm not a professional historian and the book is a bit old (copywrite 1988), but I'd be surprised if this view has been utterly discredited and I think it should be at least mentioned. -- Bdrasin 1/11/2005 10:23 (PT) See my comment above in response to your other remark. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:39, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

In modern german works, Frederick isn´t "the hammer of christianity" - the problem is, that the Hohestaufen Kaiseridee (i don´t know how to translate it in english - it means the political theory of the emperor) relates to the Kaiseridee of the later roman emperors - as god´s viceroy on earth (cf.: Hans Martin Schaller, Die Kaiseridee Friedrichs II. von Hohenstaufen, in: Stupor mundi, ed. Wolf). The propaganda of the pope tried to suggest a other picture - but ALL Hohenstaufen tried to keep the papacy at bay and to establish a empire, like it had been in the early 11. century, with a strong emperor and a pope, who didn´t interfere in secular matters. You see: they failed and the papal propaganda worked well for the next centuries. [Anonymously added 1 March 2005]

So, are you suggesting any edit? or is this just a remark? (I don't think there is an English equivalent of Kaiseridee, we either use Kaiseridee or, as you have, a circumlocution like "theory of imperial power".) -- Jmabel | Talk 20:42, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

It´s just a remark - but, perhaps you would like to edit the article to make the problem clear. Please, don´t mix the papal propaganda and the "historical" Frederick (cf. the sources). Some historians dislike him, others worship him - its ambivalent. But - so far as i know, and i am working on this field since five years and know Abuladia, Stürner, Schaller, Kantorowicz etc. - no modern historian really means, that Frederick was some kind of a renaissance prince. He was a christian monarch, no doubt (read the sources, especially his constitutions) - but he was also the august emperor and - dont forget - a man of the norman world of southern Italy. His Kaiseridee was universal - and this tradition reached back to ancient times. So: yes, its problematic. But he also punished christian heretics in the name of the church. He was the "stupor mundi" :-) --greetings from Germany.

[edit] Parentage and children

I see this was discussed above, but I wanted to try to get rid of that green, yellow and purple table. It could at least use some nicer colours :) I made a much simpler list, if that's acceptable...the previous table is still there, stuck into an HTML comment, so it can be easily reverted. Adam Bishop 06:29, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguity

I note that in an earlier part of the article, it mentions that Frederick was educated in Rome, but towards the end, it mentions that he grew up in the backstreets of Palermo. Despite the colourful language, I think the latter is correct. My understanding is that he was raised and educated in Palermo in the tradition of the siculo-norman kings, i.e. with the best Latin, Arab, Greek and Jewish scholars available. In fact the article does not give much weighting to this siculo-norman background. Indeed, the opening paragraph does not even mention that he was King of Sicily, and to this day, sicilians refer to him as Frederick I of Sicily (which he was). He was raised in Sicily (his mother being a siculo-norman) and spent the bulk of his life in his kingdom. Anyone who wants to understand the contradictions and uniqueness of his life, need to come to grips with this aspect of his life first and foremost. Focus too much on the Holy Roman Emperor part, and you are way off track before you even start. Salutamu. --pippudoz 00:45, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

He definitely was in Rome for a while, protege to the pope; I don't have much to contribute on the rest of this. King of Sicily should certainly be mentioned. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:52, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

He was educated primary in Sicily, supervised by german knights (e.g. Markward von Anweiler). He was no beggar - that´s a myth. And yes, he loved his Regnum Sicilie - but as a result of his Kaiseridee he was primary Holy Roman Emperor and not King of Sicily. For his youth and education: Stürner, Friedrich II., vol. 1, pp. 41-113.

It is difficult to reconcile this with the fact that he left his kingdom only a handful of times in his whole life and that so much of what he achieved was done as King of Sicily (legal, artistic, literary, learning, etc.). Please sign off your posts. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'coz!) 04:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

No, it´s not. Read the sources. The conflict between Papacy and Empire resulted because he foperated like his father and Barbarossa. Of course, he loved his regno, but he lived 8 years in Germany, and there he was mainly influenced by the Kaiseridee of the Hohenstaufen - read the constitutiones, or his manifests of his last years - he saw himself like a kind of messianic emperor. Only the way was another: he wanted to achieve his goals and for that he needed his regno - in Germany were the princes too strong. That´s a difference....

• • Allow me to repeat a quote from above - I refer to this quote in Maalouf's "The Crusades through Arab Eyes":

... the emir Fakhr al-Din Ibn al-Shaykh...was amazed when he arrived in Palermo: yes, everything they said about Frederick was true. He spoke and wrote Arabic perfectly, he felt unconcealed admiration for Muslim civilization, and he had nothing but contempt for the barbarous West, especially for the pope of Rome.

Let us also not forget that his own personal body guards were saracens - he kept a large contingent of muslims in his army because they could always be relied on to fight the Pope's armies if necessary. This sort of behaviour seems far removed from any norms you care to point at anywhere on the continent. If he was not half siculo-norman, and if he had not been schooled in Palermo - it is extremely unlikely that any of this would have been possible. North Europeans are used to thinking they are at the centre of absolutely everything, but that is only because they have trouble looking back further than a few centuries. --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'coz!) 23:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Maalouf is not a historian - he is a journalist. Sicily formed his character, but as a emperor, he tried to to follow the path of Henry VI and Barbarossa - but with more ressources and with a different plan, that´s true. If Frederick really speaked arabic fluently isn`t clear - the sources are ambivalent. Read Abulafia or Stürner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.235.97 (talk • contribs) 26 Aug 2005.

[edit] Angevin

Frederick II was husnand of Isabella of England and included in the Plantagenet category as her consort. John Kenney just removed all members of the family who were not directly descended from the House Anjou but were married into it. Including all Queen consorts serving from 1152 to 1399. I think this makes their articles hard to trace. User: Dimadick

[edit] Birth

A recent addition by Attilios says "Some old chronicles account he was born in a public square of the city of Jesi, in northern Italy, while is father was entering triumphantly into Palermo," which would tend to suggest this is in doubt. Older text, still in the article says, as fact "In order to stanch any doubt about his origin, the already 40-year old Constance gave birth to the child publicly in a marketplace." So which is it? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

How Frederick was born is quite dubious. The sources are divergent - both versions are not safe.

[edit] Muslim views

Similarly, old material says "The Saracens had a good opinion of him…", etc., but Attilios writes, "In his period in Jerusalem, this behaviour was much to the dislike of the Muslims too, who grew mistrustful of a Christian which was not a Christian." Is there citation on this, given that it is quite opposite to what is said elsewhere in the article? And can we integrate this material more smoothly? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Yes. See Runciman's histories of the Crusades chapter "Frederick II". Before my edit there were something like "Muslims adored him", but if you check Runciman you'll se that things were of course different from this oversimplification, and that the same al-Kamil dind not trust so much in Frederick. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Attilios (talk • contribs) 6 Nov 2005.

• So can someone integrate this contrast between what different scholars say, with citation, smoothly into the article instead of having the narrative voice veer between two opposites? -- Jmabel | Talk

Do not forget that Runciman is not friendly to Frederick. The sources are divergent, too.

[edit] "Ligurian Republic"

Can someone clarify "Ligurian Republic" in the article? The only one I'm aware of is in the Napoleonic era. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

It means Genoa. Maybe too obscore. I'll correct. Attilios

[edit] Two other clumsy phrases

"…kept the treasure with the harem and the menagerie…"; "provided this not damaged the Empire's pride": I'm not sure what these are meant to say. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

first one, that the treasure was in the camp with the harem and the menagerie. Second one, that the action was possible if this did not damage the Empire's name. Correct freely if you want (remember I'm Italian-born and my English can be doubtful). Attilios

[edit] King of...

[1] removed the title "King of Germany" with the comment that "King of the Romans" and "King of Germany" mean the same thing. Certainly, funtionally they did, and I know he used the title "King of the Romans". Did he not also use "King of Germany"? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

He certainly did, as far as I am aware. He was also, btw, King of Italy and Burgundy. john k 18:31, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

No, he wasn´t King of Italy (King of the Lombards would be the correct title) or of Burgundy (his grandfather was King of Burgundy). See Stürner and Lexikon des Mittelalters. Correction: The title "rex Italiae" is present in the sources. but the future king of Italy was crowned with the "Crown of the Lombards".

Italy was (in theory, at least) a Lombardic kingdom, so the two are not mutually exclusive. "Italia" was, anyway, an ill-defined region -- Roger II used the rubric "Siciliae et Italiae rex" until the Treaty of Benevento.Bob.appleyard 17:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Education

I have questioned this before, the claim that Frederick was educated in Rome. That appears both a bold and vague claim, because:

1. when we look at the nine languages that Frederick spoke and wrote fluently, the only place on Earth he could have learned them at that time would have been in Palermo, in the tradition of the siculo-norman kings; and
2. his first son, Henry, was born in Palermo when Fredirick was 17 (remembering he married at the age of 14) - it seems unlikely that he was commuting between Rome and Palermo and grabbing a bit of conjugal bliss in between learning to speak and write nine languages.

Sorry - I still find this claim dubious - maybe he spent a couple of years in Rome - but to insist that the whole of his education was in Rome just does not stack up. -- pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 22:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Former Catholics

I commented the category "Former Catholics" in the article. I think it's dubious that Frederick abandoned at all its original faith. I'd call him a sceptic, but without the courage to make a move towards atheism or agnosticism: it was unthinkable at the time!!!! Let me know. Attilios 09:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC).

I think it's fair enough to be doubtful about it - on the other hand, he was excommunicated on at least two occasions. Then again, the whole of Sicily was excommunicated on at least three occasions, and we're still mostly all catholics! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Excommunication doesn't make one stop being a Catholic, so far as I'm aware. john k 03:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kings and Nobles illetterate in Frederic II time ? No

The time of Frederic II is the time of Italic textCourteous Love : The nobles have to be reader and writer of poetry, according to the rules set by Alienor of Aquitaine, queen of France and latter of England. Even in the time of Charlemagne (Charles the Great), i. e. 9th century, this emperor was able to discuss philosophy, litterature and rethoric with the Intelligentsia of the time (CAHILL, "How the Irish Saved Civilization", p.206-207) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.56.0.131 (talk • contribs) 3 April 2006.

[edit] Typo?

"Also, it can be forgotten amidst the general enthusiasm over his book on falconry releases frequently that he also wrote a scientific book about birds ..." There seems to be an error in that! AWhiteC 20:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

And its been that way for months. I'm not going to try to work out how it got that way, or exactly what it said before, I'll just drop the thing about falconry; it's mentioned elsewhere in the article, anyway. - Jmabel | Talk

that reads much better. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 05:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genocide and torture

Not a single word about the brutal extinction of the norman nobility. F. acted that cruel that he was despised all over europe by the continental nobility. Many norman prisoners decided to commit suicide because of the methods of torture which Frederick used. Sorry, I can't exactly remember, but I think I found it here [2] or here [3] Sorry for not beeing absolutly sure, don't posess the books in the moment. Foreigner

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[edit] Isabella, third wife

While this certainly isn't Isabella's own article, there should probably be more information about her, because she helps to define that area of Frederick's life. Just a few quick facts (which you can actually view at her article):

--Isabella was kept under lock and key.

--Isabella's own brother had to beg Frederick to see Isabella.

--She had four children through Frederick (this is mentioned, but I think all of his children need a little more information in this article).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.13.245 (talk • contribs) 10 July 2006.

[edit] I made some changes

Yesterday I spent six hours working on the piece, mainly copyediting and trying to make the article read a little better. But I also made four quite big changes which people might like to interrogate. (I just hope that if you change any of these back, you do so piecemeal, rather than reverting the whole article and restoring all the typos, infelicities. etc.)

One consideration of mine was to make the page shorter and lighter, (though it is still tagged as possibly too heavy). For this reason:

I removed the picture of the Bull of Berne: it's actually a very beautiful thing, but it obliged the article to go into details - about the possible post-Frederick forgery of Berne's imperial charter - that I felt interrupted the main thrust of the piece.

I also removed a picture of Frederick's marriage to Isabella, simply because Isabella is hardly mentioned in the article (and because it is a peculiarly weak and uninformative drawing). (I did try to take the previous contributor's comment about Isabella on board but can find nothing about her that would add much to this article. Someone else may do better and justify the inclusion of the picture.)

The flow of the article was interrupted by a list of bullet biographies of Frederick's progeny that on first reading made me think, wrongly, that I'd reached a postscript section and that the article was coming to an end. These either duplicated information in the article or referred to events after Frederick's death. I removed this section, feeling that these offspring have informative enough pages of their own.

Finally, I removed an over-detailed and slightly florid passage about Frederick and Otto IV from the middle of the "Personality" section, where it seemed entirely out of place (having nothing to do with "personality").

I'd like to return to this article often in the future, because there is still an awkwardness about much of it, in my opinion. The great issues are too often, for me, lost in the detail. I'd like people to come to this page and be entranced by this guy, as I have been for many years.qp10qp 22:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Since that sig lacks a link to the account, I will add one: Qp10qp.

I don't have time to really review this now, but these were major changes, and someone should review. - Jmabel | Talk 07:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Physicians/Pharmacists

"Many of his laws continue to affect life down to the present day, such as the prohibition on physicians acting as their own pharmacists."

Can anyone find an instance of such a prohibition still existing today? It seems to be a common misconception in the US. I suspect it's a mistake, but haven't removed it from the article since it may be true in Italy or Germany. 70.145.176.21 20:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)Konrad

[edit] Trial by ordeal

Besides his great tolerance (which, however, did not apply to Christian heretics), he had an unlimited thirst for knowledge and learning. To the horror of his contemporaries, he simply did not believe things that could not be explained by reason. So he forbade trials by ordeal on the firm conviction that in a duel the stronger would always win, whether he was guilty or not.

This particular example was not exactly unusual for the day. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) had outlawed churchmen from participating in trials by ordeal or combat, so it seems that by Frederick's day, such methods were already regarded as old fashioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.174.36.225 (talk • contribs) 7 August 2006.

Does anyone know more on this: in particular, whether the Fourth Lateran Council decision resulted in a significant reduction in such trials outside of Frederick's realms? - Jmabel | Talk

This is just an off the cuff remark, and I have certainly not researched this subject area, but...to suggest that these sorts of trials vanished soon after 1215 seems a bit of a stretch - are we forgetting that the Inquisition would soon ramp up and continue even worse modi operandi for the next however many centuries? πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not my understanding that the Inquisition used trial by ordeal. They used torture to extract confessions. john k 00:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Liber Augustalis forbids trials by ordeal as if they were currently widespread, and as if it was unusual to forbid such a thing. Adam Bishop 23:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I think I have come across too ambiguously - I am agreeing that such a move would have been unusual (and progressive), precisely because the use of severe forms of justice had been (and probably remained) prolific. Re John's point about the distinction between "trial by ordeal" and using "torture to extract confessions" - once again, it's not my field of expertise, but the distinction does seem to border on being a moot one (no pun intended :-) πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because two things are barbaric does not mean two things are the same. The idea of trial by ordeal is that the ordeal will determine the truth. The idea of torture to extract confessions is that you will torture somebody until they confess to the crime, with their confession becoming evidence of their guilt. The latter is much more clearly in line with our usual notions of law, in that you are attempting to find evidence that the person committed the crime, rather than doing something completely unrelated to the original crime to determine guilt or innocence. john k 01:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

fair enough - to the untrained eye they do both appear as peas out of the same pod. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, insofar as we have records of such things, trials by ordeal frequently did result in acquittal. Which has led some medievalists to speculate that the ordeal worked through the participation of the local priest, who presumably had extra knowledge of guilt or innocence obtained through the confessional. The ordeal provided a means to access that knowledge without the priest violating the privacy of the confessional. Fourth Lateran outlawed the clergy from participating in traditional forms of justice in order to support the inquisitorial system it was promoting: following this council, while secular authorities could and did continue to hold trials by ordeal, they were a less effective means of carrying out justice.

For a slightly earlier comparison, consider the assizes set up by Henry II of England, which promulgated early forms of jury trial as the normative form of trial. Henry's courts were set up very much in competition with ecclesiastical courts and what remained of traditional Anglo-Saxon justice, and so to have an independent judiciary, it was necessary to have establish a justice system that did not depend on the complicity of the clergy. 130.126.101.243 14:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've just started reading The Quiet Light by author Louis de Wohl, which is a historical novel. It presents a vivid portrait of Frederick II. Freder1ck 03:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)Freder1ck

[edit] Children

I'm a bit suspicious of these uncited unsourced anonymous edits, so rather than simply clean the misspellings, etc., I've brought the matter here, hoping someone more expert on the topic will evaluate them. If I don't hear anything one way or another, I'll probably revert. - Jmabel | Talk 04:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That stuff looks dubious, but so does some of the stuff already there, like "Henry Charlote". john k 10:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The changes with the question marks could perhaps come straight out - if someone wants to raise this possibility, they can do so here first with their references. The bit of about the stillborn child being born after Isabella's death sounds a bit dubious. All other language versions of this article show a 4th child (the offspring is shown in chronological order). The Italian version of this article shows Enrico Carlotto. Carlo = Charles, and while I have never come across "Carlotto", I presume it is some form of diminutive. Either most of the other language versions appear to show something other than the equivalent of "Charles". While I agree that it's worthwhile double checking "Charlote", I would probably support a full revert at the moment. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

We should probably draw on the [Foundation for Medieval Genealogy: they have a fairly thorough and well-sourced listing of Frederick's children (drawing mostly on Matthew of Paris for the ones in question). Choess 15:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

According to that site, Henry's name was initially "Karl Otto," but then he was later known as "Heinrich," and the two names were not used together. I think we should just call him "Henry," which is how he is best known. john k 17:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you guys (who are probably more knowlegable than I am on this) don't want a simple revert, so I will leave it to you to sort it out. - Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Catholic Encyclopedia is not exactly NPOV

So, maybe we should edit the Catholic Encyclopedia derived portions of this article to Wikipedia standards, rather than leave it under Catholic Encyclopedia biases. 204.52.215.107 01:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personality

I do not agree to the version that Frederick was a religious sceptic - he understood his role as an christian monarch. The statement concerning Moses, Jesus and Muhammed was propaganda, cf. the Regesta Imperii, 5, no. 2454f.. The article should reflect the sources more carefully - the sources relative to Frederick and his time are all ambivalent (the excellent biography of Stürner is a good starting point). Cf. also Hans Martin Schaller, Stauferzeit, 1993; Schaller, one of the best historians of this period, has shown that Frederick was a religious monarch. The politic of the emperor against the papacy was part of his realpolitik. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.181.25.196 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Descendants

Frederick II's only surviving legitimate descendants are through his daughter, Margaret, whose descendents became the rulers of Saxony. Does anyone have any information on who Frederick's current heir-general is?

Obviously, the current British royal family is descended from him (House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) but I do not think that they are the senior descendants.

I think in fact they are, due to two cousin marriages among the Saxon house. Descent as follows. Choess 01:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Friedrich I, Markgraf von Meissen & Landgraf von Thuringia (1257-1323)
• Friedrich II (1310-1349), son
• Friedrich III (1332-1381), son
• Friedrich I, Elector Saxony (1370-1428), son
• Friedrich II (1412-1464), son
• Ernst (1441-1486), son
• Friedrich III (1463-1525), son
• Johann (1468-1532), brother
• Johann Friedrich I (1503-1554), son, deprived of the Electorate
• Johann Friedrich II, Herzog Saxe-Coburg-Eisenach (1529-1595), son
• Johann Kasimir (1564-1633), son
• Johann Ernst (1566-1638), brother
• Johann Philipp, Herzog von Saxe-Altenburg (1597-1639), second cousin once removed
• Elisabeth Sophia (1619-1680), daughter
• Friedrich I, Herzog von Saxe-Gotha (1646-1691), son
• Friedrich II (1676-1732), son
• Friedrich III, Herzog von Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg (1699-1772), son
• Ernst II (1745-1804), son
• August (1772-1822), son
• Luise (1800-1831), daughter
• Ernst II, Herzong von Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1818-1893)
• King Edward VII, and so forth