Talk:Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science

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Contents 1 Subheadings 2 Summary of the departments 3 Images and recent changes 4 Many errors 4.1 Manhattan Project 5 Merging School of Mines 6 Who Was Henry Krumb? 7 Admissions 8 Henry Krumb School of Mines

[edit] Subheadings

The subheadings in the history section sound like advertisement for the school. This is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry. I vote we scrap the subheadings. The history section is not exceedingly long and so doesn't necessarily warrant them. What do others think? - BeardedPhysicist 05:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• I changed the headings and deleted the last paragraph of the history section to make them read like a more professional entry in an encyclopedia, not a promotional pamphlet. Seriously, though, I don't think we need so many subheading in the history section at all. The section just isn't that long! However, in keeping with the structure of the Columbia University entry, I have left them. BeardedPhysicist 12:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of the departments

I think that info makes the article a bit more cluttered, if we look at other Universities' pages they don't often have so much detailed information on the first page. Might we add another page called "Departments of SEAS" (or something like that), and house that data there?

• I agree. The departments, programs and majors are a bit too much. All this information is surely available at the school's website. Summary paragraphs are all that is needed. Mat334 11:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I also agree. It's just cluttered info that is available on the school's website.

• Not easily available, and many of these department heads also have dealings in larger subjects. --[[User:Ctrl build|Ctrl_build^talk ]] 05:25, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

**I REITERRATE MY PREVIOUS STATEMENT, IT TOOK ME 4 HOURS TO FIND THAT DEPARTMENT INFORMATION THAT IS SO DISPARATELY PLACED. --[[User:Ctrl build|Ctrl_build^talk ]] 21:18, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • • Sorry, was looking at an old version....thought everything was reverted. My bad --[[User:Ctrl build|Ctrl_build^talk ]] 21:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Images and recent changes

Can we make sure to get the licenses for these images? It really looks like they were simply taken from a related website without permission. Perhaps somebody currently on campus can snap a few nice shots, especially it being summertime, and then donate the images to Wikipedia.

The recent changes are pretty good. I think we can still improve on the formatting of the page. I'm very happy to have that ugly heading about page merger gone from this page. I really don't think that we need separate articles for SEAS and the School of Mines since the latter's history is discussed in the SEAS article. BeardedPhysicist 16:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The photos are nice but none has anything to do specifically with the engineering school. One of the photos shows only Butler Library, which is the main university library building but which does not contain the engineering library. Another shows Butler and the buildings on either side of it -- two first-year residence halls and the student activities center. SEAS undergrads use these facilities but so do those from Columbia College, and they outnumber SEAS students by about 3 to 1. The third picture shows Low Library, which is mostly the home of the central administration. It has no particular connection to SEAS. Including one of these photos along with some SEAS-specific images would be fine, but relying solely on these three seems wrong.

• There were a number of SEAS-related photos nabbed from a website and without proper licenses. These were subsequently deleted. All it would take is for somebody with a decent digital camera to snap a few shots, which I may do when back in NY. BeardedPhysicist 19:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Many errors

This article is replete with errors; I'll try to make time to edit it but that may take a while. Some examples:

• The school does not award degrees in physics or mathematics. It does offer degrees in applied physics and aplied mathematics, but those fields fall within the applied sciences, which the article lists as if it were a distinct subject.
  • The issues of degrees has been addressed. The school offers degrees from various fields of engineering and the two applied sciences offered in SEAS. BeardedPhysicist
• The High-Beta Tokamak (HBT) is not "new" as the article says; it dates back at least to 1994. Three other Tokamaks preceeded it going back many more years.
  • The HBT is now part of the paragraph on the facilities in Plasma Physics. BeardedPhysicist
• Patents for inventions and discoveries made at the school belong to the University and not the school itself.

• While Columbia may have a "reputation for innovation in nuclear engineering", it closed the nuclear engineering program several years ago. The "General Electric nuclear fission reactor" mentioned in the text was dismantled long ago and its space converted into offices and labs.

My mistake -- I have learned that the reactor is still intact years after the N.E. program closed. It seems the cost of dismantling and removing it without damaging the building (the reactor is near the bottom of a 13-story tower) would be prohibitive.

• The school has less than 200 faculty and not the "several hundred" claimed in the table at the end. Even if non-tenure-track faculty are added the total would not be several hundred.

• The table lists the total enrollment as 1200 to 1400, but this is only the undergraduate enrollment. There are also graduate students working toward masters, professional and doctoral degrees, though I don't know how many offhand.

• The quoted enrollment figure of "approximately 425 per class" is too high (it's actually about 325) and is inconsistent with the total enrollment figure of 1200 to 1400.

• I'm reasonably sure there are no "reactors at Nevis Labs", and even if there were they would belong to the physics department, which operates Nevis, and not to the engineering school.
  • Nevis has no "reactors" that I am aware of, but rather a cyclotron. I doubt the cyclotron is still in use, since its potential should long have been exhausted with the advent of much more powerful cyclotrons worldwide. Nevis specializes in the construction and management of high-tech equipment for advanced experiments. I believe they also do data analysis. BeardedPhysicist
• I believe at least one of the two wind tunnels has been dismantled and replaced by more modern lab space.

• The list of alumni -- which omits the engineering school's three Nobel laureates and the father of the nuclear navy but includes the founder of Pete's Wicked Ale -- needs serious revisions.

• The admissions section focuses only on the math SAT, but Columbia's engineering students have high verbal scores as well; on the 1600-point version of the test the middle 50% of engineering students scored between a 1440 and a 1530, which means the lowest possible mid-range verbal scores were from 640 to 730. The actual mid-range scores were higher, though, since most students did not get perfect 800s in math and therefore had higher verbal scores to make up for the shortfall.

There are many other inaccuracies and omissions, and the writing style is poor. As I said, I'll tidy it up when I have time.

You forgot to sign your comment, whoever you are.

Also, I was always under the impression that SEAS was not one of the top-ranked engineering schools. I actually laughed out loud when I read the comparison to MIT. Prove me wrong (with a citation).

No, SEAS is not very highly-ranked, and this article just comes off as sad (for example the comment about how SEAS is known for its nuclear engineering is just sad if the program was really shut down). It badly needs a rewriting. Rm999 06:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

SEAS was 20th in the most recent U.S. News rankings, though I don't think rankings are terribly useful. The school clearly has improved quite a bit over the past several years by opening major research centers and recruiting such faculty as Al Aho and Steve Bellovin in computer science, Aron Pinzcuk and Nobel Laureate Horst Stormer in applied physics, Emanuel Derman in operations research, etc., but it has a way to go. The part about the school passing Cornell and UCLA made me cringe too; it may happen but only after the school gets a lot more space. Fortunately Columbia's campus expansion will provide that space, but not for several years.

Also, mightn't there be a mention of the controversy about the renaming? Based solely on hearsay, I know a lot of graduates who were not happy with the total rebranding based on a mere $25 million donation. Aroundthewayboy 23:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Columbia got the $26 million right away, while the larger naming gifts other schools accept are usually paid in installments over the course of several years. The Fu Foundation gift had a higher present value than nominally much larger naming gifts received by other schools. SEAS's relatively small size was also a factor since, all else being equal, naming rights for a smaller school are less valuable than those for a larger one. Besides, the school was not as strong then as it is now (and it still isn't among the very best), so it couldn't expect as much money for naming rights as a more prestigious school would command.

Keep in mind also that this donation came in 1997. An equivalent gift in 2006 currency would probably be in the neighborhood of $40 million. And whatever portion (most of it, I think) went into the school's endowment has grown at a considerably greater rate given the returns Columbia has been earning since 1997.

The additional money had a significant impact, as reflected in the expansion of the student body as well as the recruitment (and retention) of some very fine faculty.

I think there is more displeasure about the name itself than the dollar amount. I've heard several alums say they would have preferred "Z. Y. Fu School of Engineering and Applied Science" to "Fu Foundation School . . .".

[edit] Manhattan Project

We know that Columbia University played a key role at the start of the Manhattan Project, but can anybody confirm the involvement of the engineering school? BeardedPhysicist 17:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging School of Mines

I think that it should be merged as it is very short and could fit in under a History section within the fu article. --ʀ6ʍɑʏ89 11:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I support the merging of the two articles. The School of Mines page should direct to the Fu Foundation SEAS page. Matan 21:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I merged the two documents; I hope no one is offended. I also made the many other changes. Does anyone like them? Panboy414 06:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who Was Henry Krumb?

It seems scandalous that such a prestigious school as Columbia University has no text whatsoever, within Wikipedia--not even a "crumb"--devoted to the great copper miner, Henry Krumb, for whom the Henry Krumb School of Mines is named. Can someone begin a stub on him?

Yours truly, Ludvikus 04:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Admissions

I'm tempted to delete the entire admission section, which is IMO is tripe written by someone who obviously goes there. The entire section is devoted to explaining why there is a public opinion that it is not as good as the actual school. Fu is a great school, but this article just makes it look desperate. Rm999 06:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I made quite a few changes to the admission section with many up-to-date statistics. Hopefully it brings some dignity to the school--SEAS deserved the overhaul. Panboy414 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, to the person(s) who overhauled this article (whether a solitary effort by Panboy, or a group)...many thanks!

[edit] Henry Krumb School of Mines

There is nothing on this part of Columbia University. Can you Wikipedians solve this issue/question? Yours truly, Ludvikus 21:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Until recently there was an article at Columbia University School of Mines, but it was a stub and was merged with this article (not by me, but by my suggestion). Today, Krumb is basically a department within SEAS and as such (in my opinion) doesn't really merit it's own article -- I don't think you'll find an article on any other single department at Columbia. I think that any information about Krumb in its days as a full blown school of the university belong in the history section of this article. However, as you note above there is zero information on Wikipedia about Henry Krumb himself, ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_link.png

Internal linknd he very well might merit an article.

---

It would be nice to know who you are! Why not sign your comment?

Anyway, I'm not asking for article on the school. But if there such a place at Columbia University, how about at least one sentence on it--Henry Krumb School of Mines.

Regarding Henry Krumb--since he was a great American copper miner--it would be nice to honor not only with an article,

but also with a recognition of the institution whose was given toi it to honor him.

So. Can you tell me (1) who you are, (2) what the above is, as an institution, and (3) who can write an article on Henry Krumb.

[[Yours truly, Ludvikus 22:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for not signing above; that was merely an accidental omission. These days, the "Henry Krumb School of Mines," as I understand it, is basically synonymous with the Earth and Environmental Engineering department within SEAS. I commented that I don't think it needs an article because you created one. I agree that this article should mention it, but I'm not sure at what point the Krumb name was attached, so I'm not sure where it should be mentioned. As for who can write an article on Krumb himself, well, that would be whoever has the time and inclination to go read up on the man. Bgruber 03:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

HKSM was originally the name of Columbia's department of Mining, Metalurgy and Materials Science (MMMS); it received this name in the 1860s after Henry and LaVon Krumb made a large donation. Several years ago the materials science program was moved; it is now housed in the applied physics department, though it is technically an interdepartmental program. The remainder of the MMMS department was renamed the department of Earth and Environmental Engineering (EEE). The HKSM name covers both EEE and the materials science program, along with the Earth engineering center. See the HKSM homepage[1].