Talk:Fugue

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Timing of Entries 2 Varia 3 The fugue and profundity 4 Midi fugues 5 A fugue is like sonata-allegro 6 Ricercar 7 Is a bit of trimback in order? 8 request for some defined terms with hyperlinks 9 suggestion 10 Haydn's use of counterpoint 11 Bartok and Loesser 12 Help Needed

[edit] Timing of Entries

Is this section truly necessary? Once you remove the not entirely accurate and POV statements about Bach -- "The construction of a fugue is based on taking advantage of 'contrapunctal devices' as J. S. Bach called them," Bach titled his fugues Contrapunctus XX because that is the Latin term, from Contra punctum, literally counter-point. The German term is Kontrapunkt. I doubt Bach would have used a doggerel of Latin and English to refer to bits of his fugues -- the rest is simply stating that the entries come in when they will sound good, which isn't really saying much of substance.Makemi 05:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree - have removed it and made major changes to the whole "musical outline" section, giving examples etc, though it is by no means comprehensive, and could do with many more examples I think. Matt.kaner 23:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Varia

There are four canons in the Art of Fugue, not "several."

Many fugues in the Hindemith and Shostakovich fugue sets are not tonally centered. It is therefore incorrect to say that each of these is a "cycle of fugues on all keys."

(cutting in) I only have a passing acquaintance with the Hindemith, so can't comment on that, but Shostakovich's opus 87 most definitely contains a prelude and fugue in each key. They come in relative major/minor pairs working their way round the circle of fifths, so the order is C major, A minor, G major, E minor, D major, B minor and so on, ending with D minor. --Camembert

[edit] The fugue and profundity

The paragraph immediately following this one is superfluous. Obviously the fugue is an abstract form and obviously there are good and bad examples of it. The same could be said, in music, for rondo, sonata-allegro, song form with trio etc. etc. One could apply the following paragraph in poetry to the virelei, or the sonnet. Indeed, any form is abstract and therefore subject to base as well as profound exemplification. I cannot see that this paragraph adds anything to the definition of fugue. If Maverick insists on retaining it, then he should add it to every other Wikipedia definition of a form.

--from a prior draft: Writing about fugues sometimes gives the impression that the mere fact that something is a fugue makes it great or profound. In reality, a fugue is just an abstract form and can be a purely academic exercise without much musical, aesthetic, or spiritual value. Indeed, of the major classical composers, only Bach and Beethoven wrote more than one or two fugues that are part of the standard repertory, whereas there are composers who have written hundreds and, in some cases, thousands of fugues without having attained any renown. As a musicologist observed, the fugues of Bach and Beethoven are great "despite" the fact that they are fugues, not because they are fugues. The appeal of fugues, and the fact that some of the greatest compositions by some of the greatest composers are fugues or have fugue-like passages, may reside not only in the human fascination with complexity and with the role of art in bringing complexity into some kind of order, but with the temporal nature of musical experience. In a fugue, each voice has its own time structure, and when one hears a fugue, one is actually hearing multiple time structures going on simultaneously, each with their own shape and organization. This bursts the bounds of most everyday time experience and enables the listener to inhabit temporarily an expanded consciousness that can encompass multiple time tracks or layers of temporal experience simultaneously.

I think this paragraph is questionable on several counts. I'm hoping to have a good look at the article over the weekend and try to improve it a bit (of course, if somebody else does something to it before me, that would be great). --Camembert

I love that paragraph and think the last three sentences should be incorporated into the "perceptions and aesthetics" paragraph. I remember being practically mesmerised the first time I heard a fugue. Those 3 sentences go a long way toward describing the experience.

I put this in, and I won't be insulted if you wish to take it out. However, I disagree with the above point, because I have never seen any literature claiming that sonata-allegro form, rondo form, song form are inherently profound, whereas such claims or imputations are made in the way that fugues are discussed in various places ranging from concert programs and CD liner notes to books about music. That is why I put this remark here and not in discussions of any other forms. Perhaps it would help if I gave the reference for the assertion that Bach's and Beethoven's fugues are great despite the fact that they are fugues. I didn't because I put it in from memory, but I will be home soon and could find the reference. In any case, if the point seems contentious or one-sided, please take it out. Jeremy J. Shapiro 03:10, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree that it might be worth saying that fugues are sometimes thought of as being great simply because they are fugues, and then debunking that idea. My problem with the paragraph is more to do with this stuff about "expanded consciousness" and "multiple time structures going on simultaneously". The problem is that any music with a contrapuntal element will present different things going on at the same time - it's not something unique to fugues. I'm also not sure it's true to say that "only Bach and Beethoven wrote more than one or two fugues that are part of the standard repertory", though we may just have different ideas of what constitutes the "standard repertory" (there are plenty of examples by Bartók, for example). Anyway, as I say, I'm going to have a look at the whole article - I don't want to just remove anything, but I'm probably going to reword, restructure and add a fair bit. --Camembert

I changed that paragraph a bit and put it on the Counterpoint page where it really belongs. It's too cool to waste :) --Lament

OK, I've rewritten it. It isn't perfect, of course, but I think it's better than it was. Feel free to hack it around further, everyone. If you could provide a reference for the "Beethoven's and Bach's are great despite being fugues, not because" quote, that would be good, I think - it's good to have in, but I do think it needs referencing, because it seems a pretty odd thing to say to me: it seems to suggest that a piece being a fugue makes it less likely to be great, which is just as silly and off-target as saying that it makes it more likely. --Camembert

[edit] Midi fugues

It appears that the sample fugue I MIDIfied and and uploaded has won a non-fan. Actually, it was written as a school exercise, originally. My challenge to you is to see if you can identify the source of the subject, which I made the subject of the fugue as a joke. (Hint: I was in college in the early 1980s). -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:46, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

---

Don't feel bad, Smerdis. Your fugue isn't on Bach's level, but most people can't write a fugue at all.

Since you're a MIDI expert, maybe you could produce an example from the WTC for the article? For example, F# major of Book I is really delightful and would be a nice introduction to the fugue for people who haven't heard one before.

--:Opus33 20:24, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I could give it a shot. Anyone know where I could download a score? -- Smerdis of Tlön 23:56, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Try http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/dlpage_new.cfm?composition_id=93 --Camembert

I have put the C-minor WTC1 one as an example, there're others available on mutopiaproject.org (not the F# one, though). I think it would be nice to change each voice to a different instrument, though (or use a fugue that's already for separate instruments), so that people new to polyphony will be able to hear that it does indeed have three voices -- Lament

[edit] A fugue is like sonata-allegro

This is not a correct statement. Nor is the following: "In most of Bach's and Beethoven's fugues this structure is analogous to sonata-allegro or A-B-A form."

Yes, fugues are ternary in that they begin in a key, digress to other keys, and return. They are rarely ternary in the motivic sense--the exposition is repeated at the conclusion of the fugue. Perhaps what the writer was getting at was the fact that fugues are built upon the ritornello principle.

But sonata-allegro? A fugue is absolutely not! Sonata-allegro requires a second "subject," exposed in a related key, and recapitulated in the home key. This bears no resemblance to fugue.

---

I respect the previous writer's view. But it is A view. I also respect -- and find somewhat more convincing in the case of Bach and Beethoven -- the musicologist and music theorist Erwin Ratz's view that as a form of structural and harmonic organization the fugue does have important structural resemblance to sonata form, a view he went to some trouble to demonstrate in the case of fugues in the Well-Tempered Clavier. I don't have time to work on this now, but sometime soon I will rewrite the article to represent Ratz's view as a view and then mention the previous writer's view as a contrasting one. Jeremy J. Shapiro 03:43, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC).

---

As a form of structural and harmonic organization, the fugue resembles every other tonal form. This harmonic structure underlies all tonal music. Were one to restrict the comparison to structural and harmonic organization (as opposed to thematic content), the fugue resembles most any song form, lied, sonata-rondo, etc. etc. Ratz is referring to the "fundamental structure" (Shenkerian Ursatz) that undergirds all tonal music. For an explanation of this structure in a fugue, see Smith's analysis of the Ab fugue from WTC 1 at http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc/i17.html

But fugue and sonata-allegro also have a motivic and thematic component. And it is this component that sets them apart. Whereas sonata-allegro must have at least two themes, the second of which must recapitulate in a prescribed way, most fugues are monothematic. Even in the case of a double fugue, the tonal region(s) of the 2nd subject are not prescriptive as in the case of sonata-allegro.

While the likening of fugue to sonata-allegro can be criticized on thematic grounds, it also fails the historical test. Sonata-allegro evolved from the two-reprise binary, an essentially secular idiom associated with the dance and folk music. By contrast, progenetors of fugue were the motet and music of the church.

Another reason NOT to liken the fugue to sonata-allegro is that the latter is a form and the former is not. Fugue is not a form but a texture. It is not essential, for example, that a sonata-allegro be written, like a fugue, for a specific number of voices. This is because the purpose of the fugue is to contrast these voices with each other. It does this by means of counterpoint, without which it is impossible to construct a fugue. Alternatively, the main idea of sonata-allegro is to contrast sections with different themes and structural purposes with each other. Sonata-allegro can accomplish its purpose, and normally does, without much recourse to counterpoint.

The likening of fugue to sonata-allegro is most uncomfortable in works, like the sonatas of Beethoven's late period, that employ fugato, or even in some cases full-blown fugues. Does the analogy imply that these are sonata-allegros within sonata-allegros? How much better it is to think of them sonata-allegros, portions of which have been written "in fugue" (that is, in a fugal texture).

So, to say that fugue is like sonata-allegro is true only as it pertains to its tonal architecture and the fact that both forms involve development of one or more themes. Fugue and sonata-allegro are unlike each other in their historical roots, texture, and form. In terms of form, sonata-allegro is prescriptive whereas the fugue (with the exception of its exposition) is not. The implication of this comparison will create untold difficulties for amateurs who may interpret it literally and begin looking to the fugue for a recapitulation of a subordinate theme in a related key--the sine qua non of sonata-allegro but nonexistent in fugue. JSB 31 Oct 2003 .

[edit] Ricercar

From the article: "Fugal writing is found in works such as fantasias, ricercares and canzonas." Isn't ricercar just another word for fugue? -- Lament

No. Bach used the word in that way in The Musical Offering, but previously it had been used to label various pieces which, while often having some contrapuntally imitative element, were not always fugal. --Camembert

My understanding is that ricercar is the older word; and that a ricercar always has a single theme (i.e. no countersubjects or second subjects), and that very generally, a ricercar typically is a slower piece that will usually be reminiscent of the pre-Baroque, Palestrinan style of counterpoint. You can have fugues done in gigue rhythms and other dance forms; a ricercar gigue is hard to imagine. -- Smerdis of Tlön 21:25, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Is a bit of trimback in order?

If no one will be bent out of shape, I'd like to undertake some cuts. It's not so much a matter of the text being wordy (though one could argue that it is) as being outright contradictory. We're told that the fugue is not a form, then we're told that it has an exposition, development (episode sequence), and recapitulation. The "recapitulation" is also called a "coda" without any effort to resolve the contradiction.

So unless someone gives reasons to the contrary, or does it first, I will shortly try a limited trim-back of the "anatomy" section to a more modest, non-self-contradictory text. --Opus33 19:14, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Looks good! --Camembert

Not sure what the 20th century section means when it says that the first movement of Bartok: Music for Strings, Percussion, & Celeste is a fugue based on the tritone instead of the fifth. The second entry is a fifth above the first entry, the third is a fifth below the first entry, and so on, with even numbered entries rising by a fifth and odd numbered entries falling by a fifth until they meet a tritone away from the first entry.

[edit] request for some defined terms with hyperlinks

Could one of you geniuses :+} take a moment and add some definitions of basic terms being bandied about in this article, please? I think this article could use definitions of things like "subject", "countersubject", "answer", "episode", etc. - or maybe these could just be hyperlinks within the fugue article to another short article about the term to be defined (for example: subject_fugue). We students will be eternally (or at least until our exam) grateful!!Dveej 19:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm currently attempting a major rewriting of the musical outline section, but what I have so far is offline. I don't think the terms you mention deserve separate articles, besides, things are explained more or less well already. Explaining the subject can be tricky because there's no strict definition (well, strict rules exist, but not all fugues follow these rules). I'm going to try to explain it here, maybe someone will come and correct me or add something.

Ideally, the fugue starts with one of the voices stating a certain theme (Theme A), and when the second voice enters, it repeats the same theme while the first voice accompanies (accompaniment = Theme B). Theme A is called the fugue's subject, the repetition of Theme A in the second voice is called the answer. Two major exceptions:

• Sometimes the first voice first plays the subject, then plays some short melody in reduced note values, and only then the second voice enters. If said short melody is not repeated in most subject entries during the fugue, it is called a codetta. This is quite tricky because the short melody can be repeated in some entries, omitted in other entries, and so the definition of codetta is virtually non-existent. They do exist though :)
• Stretto fugues. In these, the second voice starts playing BEFORE Theme A is stated in full. In this case, the subject is best defined as the part of whatever the first voice is playing (Theme A + something else) which was repeated in the second voice. FOR instance (read the caption):

Now, back to Theme B. If Theme B is used consistently during the course of the fugue to accompany subject entries, then Theme B is called a counter-subject. If Theme B is developed in a fugal fashion and is not only used to accompany subject entries, then Theme B may be the second subject of the fugue (making the whole piece a type of a double fugue).

Episodes are merely parts of the fugue that do not have any subject entries, or parts of the fugue that do not have any material based on the subject.

Hope this helps. Jashiin 19:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suggestion

i believe in a fugue they are called subjects, not themes

[edit] Haydn's use of counterpoint

I've added some information about Haydn's use of counterpoint, based on some recent research on his symphonies. Please feel free to revert to the original form if you feel it's superfluous. I'm new to Wiki, and am enjoying reading the discussion. BlueAngel06 00:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Nice work; I've just wikilinked the symphonies. Graham87 04:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bartok and Loesser

I second the above comment that the sentence: " Béla Bartók opened his Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta with a fugue in which the tritone, rather than the fifth, is the main structural interval." is at best confusing. While the large-scale organisation of the movement involves the trip from A to E-flat and back, the entrances are organised in ascending and descending cycles of 5ths. Certainly the piece should be cited in some way, however.

Loesser's "Fugue for Tinhorns" really doesn't belong in the article, since the piece itself, title aside, isn't a fugue at all, but rather a round. (unless one wants to include a note of the common use of "fugue" to describe all imitative counterpoint.) Turangalila (talk) 22:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help Needed

I've really been working hard at the musical outline and opening sections, and added many examples etc - basically given them a complete rewrite. But I need help with the history section, of present it is completely without citations and I think I may get very depressed without any help sorting it out! Matt.kaner 01:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)