Talk:Gang
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[edit] POV
This artical is fraught with POV problems. Take this for example;
"extremist groups link visitors to other websites daubed with their own particular group, gang, or Nazi insignia where the gangs are then able to spread their ideologies, fuel racial hatred, cultural discrimination, and sexism, as well as acquire new recruits. Many of these gangs have fierce reputations for violence and are quick to attack 'outsiders' or 'newbies' who are easily identifiable.[15] Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino, states that the internet has become the primary recruiting tool of hate groups and domestic terrorists.[16]"
Extremist and terrorist are almost impossible to use without showing bias. I and no one else should be here to decide right or wrong. Present the facts and let people draw their own conclusions. Extremist and terrorist can be replaced with more descriptive non biased words fairly easily. Terrorist can be replaced with militia, paramilitary, rebel, or a number of other less biased words. Extremist can be replaced with links to specific groups that deviate from the the norm or could be replaced with "...violent off shoot of ..." If I find the time I will work on this, however I have other topics that I am more knowlageable in and care more about. To those who are passionate about this subject please contribute some time to help better it.
- I think the POV problem is subordinate to another. The article has been heavily modified by 24.168.231.199; the first contributions were apt, noting that the term has application beyond the familiar urban street gangs specialized in the drug trade, but then expansions on the rather distant applications followed, and the article lost focus. While it is possible to find a few people who refer to political extremists and their organizations as "gangs," that's not the primary meaning, and the dynamics of such organizations are so radically different from those of financially-motivated urban street gangs that the article comes to be just about "groups most people fear." My view is, pretty nearly all that stuff needs to be sent over to another article -- for instance, hate group. DavidOaks 16:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] old
The previous information was completely erroneous. It claimed the Norteños and Sureños were offshoots of the Crips and Bloods concept. The exact opposite is true however. For reference and more in depth information refer to the following information by Al Valdez, a District Attorney Investigator for Orange County, California. Valdez has a total of 21 years of experience with a special emphasis on narcotic and gang investigations and prosecutions. Currently, he is assigned to the North County T.A.R.G.E.T. (Tri-Agency Resource Gang Enforcement Team) Gang Unit for Orange County.
http://www.nagia.org/Hispanic_Gangs.htm
Joshua Castillo 1:50 pm 6/19/03
Gangs are a universal phenomenon. This article focuses mostly on Mexican-American gangs in California. This is quite interesting. Perhaps this could be part of an article on "Pachuco/Cholo" subculture (title it what you will), and a broader article on gangs can be made. -- Samo
Removed from article: Two of the largest street gangs in America are the Norteños and Sureños, the Sureños claiming blue and identifying themselves by blue clothing, and the Norteños wearing red, identifying themselves with red clothing. Norteños and Sureños are Mexican American gang members who identify with either the northern or southern part of California, with the imaginary line being somewhere around Bakersfield or Fresno, California. However, Norteño and Sureño gangs have established 'satellite gangs' as far north as Canada and as far south as Chile. These rival gangs formed as a result of a rivalry between northern and southern California Mexican American inmates at San Quentin, a state prison in northern California. The murder of Hector Padilla, a northerner, solidified the rivalry between both groups, both in the prison system and on the street.
The Mexican Americans from northern California formed Nuestra Familia (NF), a prison gang, in response to the conflict. NF was formed to protect the northern Californians from La Eme, whose membership was made up primarily of southern Californians.
Street and prison gang members from northern California began to use the number 14 as an identifier. It represented the 14th letter of the alphabet, the letter "N." The letter stood for Norteño, the Spanish word for northerner. The term norte was used to show that a person was from the north. Individuals from southern California were automatically considered rivals, inside and outside the prison system.
Southern California gang members began using the number 13 as an identifier. The 13th letter of the alphabet is the letter "M," and the word for this letter in Spanish is " Eme." Southern California gang members started using words like Sureño, which means "southerner." Often, this term was abbreviated as sur/SUR. Gang members also started to tattoo themselves with the number 13 and with the terms Sureño or sur along with the name of their gang, to signify their origin in southern California.
Inmates in the state prison system were given bandannas in a railroad print, and could select from two colors: red or blue. Mexican American street and prison gangs from northern California claimed the color red to identify themselves. They used this color because most of the southern California Mexican Americans in state prison had chosen to wear a blue-colored railroad handkerchief. The Crips and Bloods were not the first gangs to use red or blue to identify.
- Much of this is taken directly from the above mentioned source. It may also have copyright issues. And the source it is taken from makes no mention of African-American gangs or comparison to African-American gangs to Hispanic ones. Rmhermen 01:48 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)
This is still pretty minimal, isn't it? I think this deserves a lot more content, but I'm not sure I'm knowledgable enough to write it. Having listened today to a talk by Benjamin Melendez at the EMP Pop Conference, I just wrote a short article about the Ghetto Brothers. I'm kind of amazed that we have nothing on the Young Lords or the Savage Skulls, names that were known to everyone in New York 30-odd years ago. There would be a lot to say about the very different roles of females connected to the different groups (speaking of which, the article currently has nothing on girl gangs, and no mention of the fact that the gangs referred to in the article are nearly all all-male institutions). Also, there is nothing on the very complex interaction between gangs, more socially acceptable neighborhood associations, politics, the emergence of rap music, etc. I hope this is suggestive of some of where we might take this article. -- Jmabel 06:30, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This website [1] contains useful information that can be added to this article. -- J3ff 23:10, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Possibly questionable addition
Recently & anonymously added: "Inland Empire Onterio SurX3 Black Angel gang".
- Is this correctly spelled ("Onterio" vs. "Ontario")?
- Is this actually a significant enough gang to merit mention? I've never heard of it, but this would be 1,000 miles from where I've ever lived. Does anyone have a citation to back its notability?
Jmabel | Talk 17:53, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
- This could be referring to Ontario, California and the Inland Empire in California. — J3ff 23:20, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Clearly, sorry, I thought that was a given so I didn't mention it; a gang name could contain a deliberate misspelling so (even if this gang is notable at an encyclopedic level, which I doubt) the spelling of the town wouldn't necessarily tell us the correct spelling of a gang. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:24, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
It's spelled ONTARIO! I've never heard of it either. c2 aaronr | Talk 12:06, Sept 14, 2005 (UTC)
The gang that is mentioned above spells Ontario with an "e" thus writing it as Onterio. This gang is well known in San Bernardino/ Los Angeles county and has several members that are high ranking mexican mafia members. They are also highly respected by southern california chicano/ hispanic gangs.
1. OVS Black Angels [[2]]
2. City of Ontario Gangs [[3]]
3. Mexican Mafia Black Angels.[[4]]
4. Chart of top ranking LA EME members (which ironically the majority are from the Inland Empire area)[[5]]
User:JWATCH | Talk 12:00, Oct. 23, 2005 (UTC)
- The foregoing appears to be by User:Jwatch, not User:JWATCH
[edit] Including a link
Most prison gangs are now referred to as "STG"'s, or Security Threat Groups.
I don't have an account yet, but I'm a correctional officer involved with STG activity, so I'm going to add a link to STG next to the section involving "Prison gangs."
I also included in there some basic information on white and hispanic gangs, mostly because those two STG's do most of the name changes in prison, whereas most african-american STG's retain their street names.
FYI, this is me. Mason 18:23, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Another questionable addition
Recent anonymous addition: "The Philadelphia based Yale Street Gangsters". The article Yale Street Gangsters is a substub; I've never heard of them; does anyone know if they are actually significant enough to merit mention in the article? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:41, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Norteños & Sureños
A recent anon edit turned "Some offshoots of the original Norteño/Sureños concept include Crips and the Bloods, African American gangs" into just "Some very well known gangs are the Crips and the Bloods." I don't really know anything about Norteños & Sureños, and there is no citation, so I am not reverting this apparent removal of material, but if someone else knows what's going on here they may want to step in. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:00, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Crips/Barbados
Is there any citation for the claim about the Crips in Barbados, or was someone just confused by the term Caribbean Regional Indicative Programmes (CRIP)? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Chicago 1960s
The two most prominent Chicago gangs of the 1960s were the Blackstone Rangers and the Black Gangster Disciples. Both deserve mention, and probably articles. - Jmabel | Talk 06:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- Both certainly deserve mention here, but they do have their own articles: Black P. Stones and Gangster Disciples 65.42.89.232 00:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] real gangsters
Al Capone was a real gangster. All these fake rap stars are just foney. A true gangster is someone who dresses in a fancy suit drives a nice caddilac and uses a tommy gun. Someone who dresses in clothes that are 10 times to big for them. Talks like they dropped out of the third grade. And cant carry their pistol strait is not a gangster. They are just fools trying to look cool. They are not tough. They are scarred little boys in a bad neighborhood. Dont get me wrong. I'm not saying a mobster is any better, but they are more admirable than the fools in the "hood". The police should arrest anyone gang-related and put them in millitary school, so they can accually learn to be tough and cool, and serve their country. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.148.168.64 (talk • contribs) 4 June 2006.
One word, "amen" ;-) (signed), User:pidgeonman
- No foney tommy-gun toting scarred boys, these guys are now military-grade: [6] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.42.89.232 (talk • contribs) 14 July 2006.
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- 'A true gangster is....' Please. The whole statement is hatred filled and bias. One word - research. Oh, and you may want to read up on currently active gangs such as the MS-13 or the Yakuza. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roguestate (talk • contribs) 9 August 2006.
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[edit] Gangs in schools
The two sentences that comprise the "gangs in schools" section are highly ambiguous and almost free of content entirely:
"Gangs are portrayed as integrated entities within the public school system of many states. Although this assumption is mainly superfluous, a few discerning factors have brought it to the attention of many households."
Who's doing the portraying? Integrated as in tightly internally linked? Racially integrated? Which states? Is superfluous really the word the author wanted, or did he/she mean something else, like "unsupported by evidence"? The phrase "discerning factors" is unintelligible. What specifically have which households noticed, and how do we know?
Does anybody else agree with me that this section should be deleted until it can be properly developed?
Franziska 18:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Adrianmander 01:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC) Edit: I went ahead and deleted the section. Adrianmander
[edit] Gangs or 'American Gangs'...
This page should serve as the base / starting page - with sub-sections linking it to pages on gangs from different nations around the world. This page is talking completely from an American viewpoint and is not relevant across the world.
Is listing Motorcycle Clubs on a gang webpage proper??? I have to feel since the Hell's Angels and the American Outlaws don't hold down turf that they are a CLUB and not a GANG? JButera | Talk 02:52, 02 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Currentism and other problems
The article seems to me to be becoming more and more focused only on very current matters. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Among what I would consider inapproriate deletions:
Nearly every major American city was ravaged by gang violence at some point in its history, and it often had profound effects on the political climate and later development in general. Politicians themselves were often involved, funding gangs to be used in violent acts against political opponents. In New York, many gangs were centered in the infamous Five Points region, and included the Bowery Boys, the Shirt Tails, and the Dead Rabbits. Aside from their practice of regularly killing innocent people for money, the most notorious singular violent act committed by these gangs was the New York Draft Riots of 1863. The common tools of the trade were often blackjacks, lead pipes and daggers. Gang members could often be identified by the large plug hats that they would wear pulled down over their ears, usually stuffed with paper and rags to mitigate blows from attackers. In San Francisco, one of the largest and most influential gangs was the Sydney Ducks, which consisted of mostly immigrants from Australia.
Also, the article is very U.S.-focused.
Even given that, there is also no mention at all of the several U.S. gangs that in the late 1960s transformed themselves into aboveground political activist groups (e.g. the Young Lords and the Ghetto Brothers).
Also, while I'm not super-big on tracking this sort of thing lately, there are mentions of a couple of gangs that I question whether are notable enough to be mentioned here, and for whom I would like to see some evidence of notability... or even mere existence: K-Unit (particularly odd that the wording puts them on the same level as Crips and Bloods), Nigga Knights. - Jmabel | Talk 02:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Another Suggestion
It would be really helpfull if the gang violence section had more information because right now, there is one sentence which is pretty much common sense. Its pretty obvious when your on a page that is about gangs and in a section of the page on violence that it is going to mean the violent crimes that gangs committ. Maybe talk about some of the different violent crimes that are comitted by gangs, why,the prevolance of gang violence, and the punishments that they are given ... just a suggestion, because I am writing a paper on gang violence and this section was not very helpfull to me at all in my research
[edit] Customs
I see that this is already listed at the top of the page, but I'd like to reiterate the need to include some information about gangs' cultures and practices. Very specifically, I've been trying to find out where the practice of "pour out a little liquor" came from. This article has no mention of O.G.s or dons (I believe that is what the mafia head guys are called) or turf wars or anything of that nature. Greener grasses 00:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Call for deletion
I strongly disagree with the idea that the subject does not merit an article of its own -- "gang" as a concept has an importance larger than any of the subsections, and requires exploration much greater than dictionary definition. However, I do feel that it needs to be locked from editing by new or unregistered users; it attracts almost daily vandalism, and the energy required to delete the nonsense probably discourages more substantial contributions. DavidOaks 20:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. I've removed the {{prod}} tag. The next step, if the proposer wants to take it further, is a WP:AFD deletion discussion. I don't think an AFD proposal would succeed though - the most likely outcome is "keep and improve". Zaian 08:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge
This article overlaps heavily with gangster. I think a merge might help (in the process of merging, unsourced and unsuitable material can be trimmed). Zaian 08:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- I oppose merging with gangster. Gangsters are often much more organized criminals than gangs. A gang also can be a soccer team or ice hockey team, and musn't always refer to criminals. / Johan1982 01:31, 10 February 2007 (CET)
[edit] Notice at WP:AN regarding Gang Stalking
People here might be interested to see this; someone created an article at Gang Stalking which was subsequently deleted. I don't know what happened to the content that was at that article. Click above for details. Joie de Vivre 18:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
The pretty much daily vandalism is a major energy-drain, preventing improvmeent of this article. I propose adding the following code (invisible in surface version and de-activated in edit view, borrowed from "Amish," in turn adapted from "GWB"):
{sprotected2}}
That is, protection and a comment -- Vandalism to this page will be reverted within minutes. Please consider helping instead of damaging other people's hard work.
Thoughts? DavidOaks 04:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Definition
I have placed this in the article: thought and comments?
I have played about with the first bit "A Gang" and added a "Street Gang" and "Organised Crime Group". Criminal Fraternities such as motorcycle clubs and skinheads whilst being referred to as a gang i think do not fall neatly under any definition on this page. I think the Motorcyce Clubs and Racist groups warrant a single page for each as they are much more distinguishable (whilst also being similar) from gangs. To keep it simple:
Motorcycle Clubs - members must own motorcycle Skin Heads/Neo-Nazis - Belief in White being the Superior Race
Street gangs such as Crips, Bloods, Nortenos, Surenos etc.. do not have any definers such as those above. Just about anyone living in the gang neighbourhood can be initiated no matter what their beliefs and possesions are. They do not need anything specific to be a part of the gang and excluding the initiation there is very little they need to do. (although many are ethnically homogenous it is argued this reflects more on social demographics than anything else)
There is no agreed upon definition for a gang, or street gang at least. There are hundreds of definitions that have been debated ever since Thrasher (1927) defined the 1313 gangs he observed in Chicago.
There is little, if any, consensus as to what constitutes a gang and who is a gang member, let alone what gangs do, either inside or outside the law (Ball & Curry, 1995; Decker & Kempf-Leonard, 1991; Gardner, 1993; Klein, 1969; Miller, 1975, 1980; Needle & Stapleton, 1983). When describing their conceptual and operational definitions, many contemporary gang researchers note the absence of definitional consensus.
The irony, of course, is that even the “experts” cannot agree on what constitutes a gang or gang behavior, and many experts find fault with nearly every definition.
An article in the Journal of Contemporary Justice (Malcolm W. Klein "The Value of Comparisons in Street Gang Research", 2005) talks of a consensus definition developed over 5 years and agreed on by more than 100 gang research scholars in the United States and Europe. It is a minimalist definition specifically designed to enhance comparative street gang research.
“A street gang is any durable, streetoriented youth group whose own identity includes involvement in illegal activity.”
- “Durable” is a bit ambiguous, but at least several months can be used as a guideline. Many gang-like groups come together and dissipate within a few months. The durability refers to the group, which continues despite turnover of members.
- “Street-oriented” implies spending a lot of group time outside home, work, and school—often on streets, in malls, in parks, in cars, and so on.
- “Youth” can be ambiguous. Most street gangs are more adolescent than adult, but some include members in their 20s and even 30s. Most have average ages in adolescence or early 20s.
- “Illegal” generally means delinquent or criminal, not just bothersome.
- “Identity” refers to the group, to the collective identity, not the individual self-image. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.45.122.121 (talk • contribs) 17:57, March 2, 2007.
[edit] Top five major?
What was the reason this line:
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- The top five cities containing gangs are Los Angeles, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, and Atlanta - each with different dominating gang cultures.
was changed to this line:
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- The top five major cities containing gangs are Los Angeles, Chicago, San Diego, Houston, and Phoenix - each with different dominating gang cultures.
and in the absense of any citation does anyone agree that we're better off without this sentence? Sirmob 14:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Scope, organization
While the recent extensions into discussion of Internet crime such as "warez" sites certainly belongs on Wikipedia someplace, it is stretching the notion of "gangs" pretty far: at this rate, we are liable to embrace all of organized crime under the term. Some of this information may better belong in other articles.
Also, I think we should be wary of synthesis that would not be acceptable to the sources cited. For example, we cite the FBI for "The definition of a 'gang' is no longer restricted to typical organized crime groups" (which should probably be explicit that this is the FBI's definition, not "the" definition), but then we use a definition in the article that is much broader even than the cited FBI definition.
I also think that when we use a source such as the FBI that stands to see its budget enlarged if the gang problem is seen as larger, our text should be very clear that the views expressed are the FBI's. As it stands, this is not even available in a footnote, because the citations are just blind URLs.
Also, recent additions are very U.S.-centric: e.g. "states" presumably means "U.S. states" but no such context is given. - Jmabel | Talk 20:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
