Talk:Geat

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I've removed this bit.

From the geography described in the poem, it would appear that its events take place along the shores of Lake Vänern, and it was in this lake that the monster Grendel dwelled.

Beowulf is a Geat, but he crosses the sea to fight Grendel. Klaeber places that part of the story in Zealand. Matthew Woodcraft

I suggest changing "kingdom" in the article to something with better foundation in accepted science. Talk about tribes and chieftains instead, there's support for that terminology. There is also no evidence that the Geatas of Beowulf have anything to do with present-day Swedish territory, and the place-names mentioned involving "Göta-" (Göteborg, Göta älv, Östergötland, Västergötland) are iirc all much more recent than unified Sweden. The history of any independent Götaland should imo at this time be kept in the realm of speculation. OlofE 14:03 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

I was unaware of any major issues or doubt surrounding the identification of the Beowulf Geats with the areas in Sweden now apparently named after them. The names are cognate; Geatas and Götar are the expected outcomes in Old English and East Norse of PGmc *gauta-. Geats are named by that name in Codex Holm from around 1280, which also mentions "Østrægøtland" and "Østgøtar" as well, which seem recognisable antecedents of the names of the Swedish regions. Of course, this is well after the 500s but probably too early for people to be renaming their territory because of romantic identification with the heroes of Old English literature. As to calling them "kingdoms," the only kingdom I see mentioned in this article is the kingdom of the Swedes. In the USA we're used to being told to turn "tribes" into "nations" in any case. It probably pays to err on assuming sophistication rather than otherwise. -- IHCOYC 03:18 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

At least 4 different "tribes" have some sort of claim to the geatas link - Götar, Gutar (the people of Gotland in the Baltic sea), Jutar (Jutes I believe - present day Danish mainland) plus the hard-to-work-with, the Goths. The claim of Beowulf's ancestry has been made a symbolic one in patriotic disputes between the regions more than once. The latest Swedish translation of Beowulf does indeed not translate Geatas with Götar, but preserves the original word (despite the new foreword making the expressly wishful assumption that the hero's origin could/should be in Västergötland).

Regarding kingdoms and kings, this is a matter of current debate and one that tends to interest a lot of people in Sweden today. The matter of which regions have identified themselves as a unit in some sense, and when they did so, has some bearing on the nature of the birth of the nation of Sweden, and the rivalry between the two main regions. I wouldn't call the discussion infected, but there is some pretty heated arguing going on and new books are constantly being released. Anyway, keep it as is, I'll get back when I can contribute something - good work:-) OlofE 06:39 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

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Claiming that the Goths of Gotland played a great part in continental history is, how should I put this.... not designed to increase one's credibility. Maybe it's a conspiracy. OlofE 19:09, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The connection between Gautar and Geatas is only controversial due to regional rivalry. The Jutes, for instance, were known to the Anglo-saxons who called them Eotas. As the Eotas were part of the A-S stock, there is no sense in assuming that the A-S confused Geatas and Eotas. Moroever, the A-S ea corresponded to Old Norse au and modern Swedish ö: leaf-löv, reave-röva, dream-dröm, bear-björn, mead-mjöd, etc. Geatas is the logical A-S form of Old Norse gautar and modern Swedish götar. Wiglaf

I don't agree, no. To begin with, "fascist" is not a word you use in a NPOV article about a 16th century person, no matter what your views are. From there on, the conspiracy described is pure hot air. Womb of peoples? In the same breath as "goals of wikipedia"? Suddenly I remember why I stopped coming to the pedias. Nevermind. Someone will find the article, eventually. Not me though. OlofE 20:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Someone got a little overzealous by turning the Jutes article into a redirect to this one. While some authorities believe the two people are the same, one can discuss either people without reference to the other: the Geats relate to Swedish history, while the Jutes to Anglo-Saxon history. After this possible identity in the 6th century, neither nation has much to do with each other until the Viking era. Combining the two articles leads to confusion. They are separate topics. -- llywrch 19:27, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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OlofE, you seem to adress the words 'fascist' and 'womb of people' at me. This is silly and you are building a strawman. I have NOT done those contributions to the article. I don't believe there is a conspiracy and I have NOT written that there is anything such. You seem to be personally opposed to the generally accepted identification between 'geats' and 'gauts'. And you have NOT given any linguistic or historical proof for your point of view. The fact that the recent Swedish translation does not translate 'Geat' with 'Gaut' but preserves the original form is NOT any such proof. I am a linguist, but I know a number of Swedish history professors. This period of Swedish "history" is not politically correct in Sweden, and Swedish historians avoid it. I doubt that you have missed that. Keeping the original form of the name is just a convenient way of avoiding possible conflicts. Wiglaf

P.S. OlofE, next time you addess me, please, bring something substantial to support your point of view, and DON'T put words in my mouth. Wiglaf

Nonsense. They *were* quotes, but not by you nor aimed at you. Mr Allan-whatever used the word "fascist" in the article, I told him it had no place there. Later, Mr Allan decided to withdraw from the wikipedia because he could not settle his differences in any of the conflicts he kept getting into. He then proceeded to delete all his comments everywhere, not caring a bit that it left some pages incomprehensible. Consult the history for the pages to see how the comments relate to each other. OlofE 21:04, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I see it was Kenneth Allan! I have had to remove some paragraphs that he has written, in other articles. They are usually a mishmash of strange and confused etymological speculations. Just look at Frith. I was so stunned when I read it that I have not had the energy to remove his contribution there. Wiglaf

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I think we should drop the mention of Göteborg or rephrase it, as that name is very recent. There are plenty of placenames with a "correcter" heritage in their names, like Götala. (Götene? I don't recall the history of that). // OlofE 08:05, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have changed according to your suggestions.--Wiglaf 18:00, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I saw - great:) (How's the thesis coming along?) // OlofE 18:34, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am supposed to be finished this fall.--Wiglaf 19:30, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Contradictions 2 Pronunciation 3 Regarding the title of the Swedish King 4 Geats, Svear and Swedes 5 western and eastern Geats 6 Surely this is mixed up? 7 Beowulf's Geats = Götar ? 8 On Gautar and Geatas

[edit] Contradictions

First, the article says: The languages of Goths and Geats were strikingly different...

Then it says: There is no knowledge about differences in language between Geats and Goths. There is no remaining literature. Out of the very few runic words found in alleged territories of the Geats and Goths, no conclusions can be made.

Which is it? Joey 20:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I've pointed out such discrepancies before, but nobody cared to answer. Read my comments interspersed in the text. That the Geats and the Goths were actually the same ethnic group was a pet theory of Wiglaf. After he left Wikipedia, some purging of his fringe theories needs to be done. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever said "Awwww Geat, Geat, Geat, Geat"?

I can't see that Wiglaf has ever written that in his contributions. "Pet theory" is obviously a below the belt attack from mr Ghirlandajo who seems to be a controversial user. Isse

[edit] Pronunciation

How do you pronounce Geat? Is it gæɑt? Ireneshusband 07:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

In English, I just think it's thick g as in goose, rhyming with eat. 惑乱 分からん 22:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the title of the Swedish King

From the last sentence of the History text: "To this day, the Swedish kings still formally call themselves svears och götars konung (king of Swedes and Geats, or Rex Sweorum et Gothorum)."

This is no longer true. When present Swedish king Carl-Gustaf acceded in 1973 he deleted the minor titels ("King of Swedes, Geats and Wends") and his title is "only" King of Sweden (Sveriges Konung). The same did danish Queen Margerethe who acceded 1972, she dropped the titles og Geats, Wends etc.

[edit] Geats, Svear and Swedes

The article differentiates between Geats and Swedes. It is my understanding that Swedes is the collective term for Geats, Gotlanders and Svear. In light of this, the article should change Swedes to Svear where relevant. Please see the version of the map used in the Svear article.KarlXII 15:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Swedes is the most common name used for the "svear" in English. Swedes is also since a long time back the preferred translation of svear at Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board/Terminology. Don't equate Swedes with "svenskar". Swedes means both "svear" and "svenskar", just as svenskar did in the middle ages (in Västgötalagen a "svensk man" was NOT a Geat). Moreover, when Geats are discussed, "Swedes" is unambiguous and there is no risk for confusion.--Berig 15:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has (temporarily?) been moved to My talk page. Everyone is welcome there.KarlXII 20:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] western and eastern Geats

In modern Swedish a distinction is often made between eastern and western Geats (Östgötar och Västgötar) analogous to Eastern Geatland (Östergötland) and Western Geatlant (Västergötland) and similar distinctions between the two languages. I believe there have also be historical differences between the two. Should this be mentioned in the article?KarlXII 13:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It can absolutely be mentioned in the article.--Berig 13:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surely this is mixed up?

Current text says:

"Moreover, he described that on this island there were three tribes called the Gautigoths (cf. Geat/Gaut), the Ostrogoths (cf. the Swedish province of Östergötland) and Vagoths (Gotlanders?)."

Surely this must be the other way around, i.e. Gautigoths = Gotlanders, Vagoths = Västergötar (pronounced Vägötar)? --217.211.25.143 19:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beowulf's Geats = Götar ?

The article states as given that the Geats mentioned in Beowulf are the same as the Swedish Götar/Gutar. From what I've understood, this is not so clear or certain. Many mention that a more likely identification is that the Geats of Beowulf are in fact the Jutar (from Jutland). Although I'm not suggesting that the article should replace one assumed 'fact' with another, I do think the article should mention the uncertainty which exists on the issue and why. Certainly, the Swedish wikipedia article on Beowulf mentions this. For those of you who can read Swedish:

Medan identifikationen mellan geater och götar är ganska okontroversiell i den engelskspråkiga världen, är den intressant nog mer kontroversiell i svenska sammanhang. Det anglosaxiska ea motsvarade au i fornnordiska, och ö i modern svenska, jämför leaf-löv, reave-röva och så vidare. Det fornengelska ordet geatas betyder helt enkelt götar. Emellertid skildras geaterna i dikten som ett folk i nära förknippning med havet, medan götarna historiskt varit inlandsbundna. Detta har föranlett en del frågeställningar.

Andra som är tänkbara som geater är gutarna. För en engelsman på medeltiden kan gutarna, pågrund av namnlikheten, mycket väl ha missuppfattats som götar. Gotland passar dessutom bättre in i den geografi som dikten målar upp än de båda götalandskapen. Vidare nämns ibland jutar, fast de nog har lite väl långt till svealandskapen. Historiskt finns det inget samband mellan j-ljudet i jutar och g:et i geater. Någon gotisk folkspillra vid Östersjöns sydkust är väl mindre trovärdig, ehuru bättre placerad för att strida med folk från Mälartrakten. Hur som helst kan det fortfarande inte sägas med säkerhet var Beowulf egentligen hör hemma.

Regards Osli73 02:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On Gautar and Geatas

This section is currently ended with "especially in Sweden, where the debate about Sweden's history prior to the 11th century is affected". While it is true that there is a debate about the history of country prior to the 11th century, I don't see where the identity of the Gautar in Beowulf has any direct bearing on this. Cheers Osli73 16:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)