Talk:George VI of the United Kingdom

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Contents 1 Title 2 Image 3 Albert 4 India 5 Causes of Stammer 6 Trivia 7 Date formats 8 King-emperor 9 Legacy 10 Styles 11 Joined the RAF in 1917? 12 "Appeared on the balcony" 13 George, Duke of Kent?? 14 Prince of Wales? 15 Military positions 16 Fail GA 17 GA Pass 18 Main Picture 19 Titles

[edit] Title

The future King George VI was always referred to in the British and international press as "HRH The Duke of York" between June 3, 1920 (the date of his creation or birth) and December 10, 1936 (the day he succeeded Edward VIII). See the Index and archives for the Times (of London),the Daily Telegraph, the New York Times. Also see the Court Circular in the Times from this period. He was not known by the public as "Prince Albert" during these years, as previous versions of this Wikipedia article state. In Britain, it is always proper to refer to a member of the royal family who holds a peerage by that title (e.g., the Earl of Wessex not Prince Edward, or the Duke of Kent not Prince George).

Most British sovereigns of the Houses of Hanover and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha/Windsor created their younger sons and the sons of the Prince of Wales (if they existed) dukes shortly after coming of age or in their 20s. Elizabeth II is unusual in that she waited until the morning of her the respective weddings of her two sons, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward, before conferring peerages on them.

It was only after the 1947 marriage of Princess Elizabeth to the former Prince Philip of Greece that the press began to refer to royal family members by their princely titles and personal names, in lieu of their correct peerages (prefixed with HRH).

Yvonne Demonskoff's Royalty Homepage and the archives for the newsgroup alt.talk.royalty discuss this in great detail.

You are quite correct. Though everyone referred to Princess Diana no such person actually existed, just Lady Diana Spencer, HRH the Princess of Wales, and Diana Princess of Wales. Unfortuntately wiki cannot use simply the title in headings; names have to be used disambigulate different Princes of Wales, Dukes of York, etc. Reliance exclusively on titles is a problem because there is a determined minority who have made every effort to insist that names, not titles should only be used. (I had a fight to the current Prince of Wales' article moved to Charles, Prince of Wales from Charles Windsor!!!) So complete reliance on titles rather than names risks generating edit wars from that entrenched monority. Usage of some personal names in some contexts is the compromise that was agreed to stop the minority, mainly in the US and anti-monarchist forcing patently absurd naming conventions on royalty. FearÉIREANN 17:29, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC) (BTW, don't forget to sign your messages. ~~~ gives your identity, four of them, ~~~~ gives name and time of message.

[edit] Image

What happened to the image? Astrotrain 21:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It was deleted as a copy-vio.

I've had a look, but I can't find any decent pictures of G6 that will be PD; after all, most images of him will be from post-1923.

James F. (talk) 19:36, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Albert

What did Queen Victoria actually have against kings being named Albert? 193.167.132.66 11:19, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Her husband was called Albert, and the British government refused to grant him the title of King, as she wanted. Therefore she was against the idea of a future King Albert, and even a future Queen Victoria. Astrotrain 19:27, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks. This had puzzled me for years. Fortunately Queen Victoria's wishes don't carry on outside the UK, or else the future Queen of Sweden would have to change her name. 193.167.132.66 14:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • I believe that this is just a rumour. She wanted her eldest son to reign as King Albert I in memory of her husband, and evidence of this was in the naming of her British grandchildren: as the eldest child of the Prince of Wales would be the future king, she wanted him to be called Albert, and indeed the POW's eldest son was named Albert Victor, and it was QV's hope he would reign as such. However, he died and his brother became next in line. Upon the birth of his first son, QV wanted the future George V to name the future Edward VIII 'Albert' rather than 'Edward.' She obviously really wanted a King Albert. Morhange 22:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] India

India did not become a republic in 1947. India and Pakistan became independent dominions within the British commonwealth. George VI remained head of state, as King (although he wasn't actually styled "King of India" or "King of Pakistan," I think. India only became a republic in 1950, and Pakistan in (I think) 1956. john k 16:04, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Causes of Stammer

The nanny doted over Albert's brother, Prince Edward while neglecting Albert. As a result, Albert developed a severe stammer that lasted for many years. This was also exacerbated by his being forced to write with his right hand although he was a natural left-hander.

Is this a joke? Can anyone say with a straight face that these two things are definitive causes of Albert's stammer, much less even plausible explanations?

Stammering is a common manifestation of left-handers being forced to write with the right hand (or vice-versa). 64.132.218.4 17:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)Cee

[edit] Trivia

The birth/name anecdote properly fits here, immediately following his list of titles in life. He is dead; he no longer has any title but "the late". MoralHighGround 21:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC) sockpuppet of a banned Canberra user. This sockpuppet, and the numerous others he created, has been banned indefinitely.

[edit] Date formats

Will someone please explain why the various dates are being forced to the DD Monthname format via the addition of an extraneous space at the end? The space makes it look utterly ridiculous, regardless of what your opinion of British vs. American date formatting is.—chris.lawson (talk) 03:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The trouble is that if a user's preferences are set to use British dating, a problem with the dates doesn't show up (that's why when individuals as here change some dates in an article from the British system to the American system it isn't automatically noticed, even when the article is a jumbled mix of the British and American systems). I've corrected all the errors in terms of extra spaces that I could see, as well as fixing the dates in an article on a British monarch to the British dating system. I also left a message earlier on the wikipedian I think is innocently leaving the spaces to explain the problems they cause. Now if only the "lets Americanise" brigade who keep trying to Americanise every article in terms of American English, American grammar, American capitalisation and American dating would read the rules of Wikipedia they might realise that articles like this one are supposed to be written in BE, not AE, and British dating, not American dating.

FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 03:49, 23 July 2005 (UTC)}

Er, it's worth noting that the article has been in 'American' date format for its entire life, until the mass changeover a few days ago. (You should know that, Jtdirl; you've contributed to the article for nearly three years without changing it.) There wasn't some Americanization conspiracy at work; it's just how the article was written. Either way, this is a silly thing to have a revert war over, isn't it? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:22, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] King-emperor

As a non-British person I have a question: the queens and kings of the United Kingdom were also Emperor of India. So, why was it then not common to name them with the title King-emperor or Queen-empress?

Probably because they were not a native emperor with a local history, unlike say the Austrian emperor and King of Bohemia, who possessed titles and a presence in both territories since ancient times. The title Emperor of India was more a legal creation than a creation of history, so the monarch was seen simply as King of the United Kingdom, with India an appendage. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\^{(caint) 21:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)}

Actually, Kipling uses "Queen-Empress" rather frequently in his works, but your overall point seems reasonable. Choess 22:37, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I think its something to do with nationalism, they didnt want to upset the british public (at least thats what i read somwhere)

The terms Queen-Empress and King-Emperor were indeed used in legal proceedings and statutory enactments in pre-Independence India. However, British monarchs were only empress and emperors in India (as the Hohenzollerns prior to 1871 were electors were "king in Prussia" but not elsewhere).

[edit] Legacy

It is surely fatuous in the extreme to describe George VI's "legacy" as consisting of a statue and a BBC television series. Suleiman the Magnificent he wasn't, obviously, but that's just not what a "legacy" is:

"A statue of George VI adorns The Mall, near Admiralty Arch.

"A biographical television series, Bertie and Elizabeth, was broadcast on BBC in 2003. The series was also broadcast on PBS as a part of the Masterpiece Theater series in March 2005."

Masalai 16:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Styles

Added back in George's (Albert's) style from 1895-1898. From his birth to 1898, he was styled His Highness Prince Albert of York. In 1898, Queen Victoria issued letters patent that allowed children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales to be styled His/Her Royal Highness. George VI was the son of George V (who was the eldest surviving son of the Prince of Wales). Prsgoddess187 18:38, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

D-Day Argument With Winston Churchill

I recently heard that on the eve of D-Day both Churchill and the King wanted to go with the supporting troops into Nornandy. Though they both decided against, when Churchill pointed out that if they were killed Britain could lose its two main leaders. Could anyone elaborate on this ?

[edit] Joined the RAF in 1917?

The article states that In 1917, Albert joined the Royal Air Force but did not see any further action in the war. [1] The RAF did not come into being until 1 April 1918 and so this statement cannot be correct. Did he join the Royal Flying Corps? Greenshed 20:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I just watched Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress, the 1944 documentary about the aircraft and crew that was the first in the U.S. Eighth Air Force to complete 25 missions as a crew over Germany and German-occupied Europe. At the end of the film, the King and Queen visited the airfield to congratulate the crew of the aircraft. King George appeared to be wearing a Royal Air Force officer's uniform, although I could not make out what rank insignia he wore. Is it correct that members of the British Royal Family are considered members of all of the British Armed Forces? I see from this recent photo that Charles, Prince of Wales wears the uniform of an Air Marshal. --rogerd 18:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Appeared on the balcony"

Does it not occur to anyone else that the statement, "On VE Day, the Royal Family appeared on the balcony of Buckingham Palace to celebrate the end of the war in Europe" is acutely odd? It's not as though they didn't and don't "appear on the balcony" on many other occasions and in any case it makes it sound as though this were some sort of miraculous visitation. One could perhaps amplify with mildly foolish, albeit conventional, observations regarding the nation coming together on the Mall with the Royal Family as the focus of their celebrations, and all that guff, but surely the article would be improved simply by deleting it altogether. Masalai 00:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George, Duke of Kent??

In the article it's mentioned that consideration was given to bypassing the 'nervous' Duke of York infavor of the Duke of Kent as Edward VIII's successor. What about the Duke of Gloucester?? Who's older then the Duke of Kent. GoodDay 16:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It would also have involved bypassing the young Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret of York. I've no idea exactly how this supposed plan was meant to be implemented. I've vaguely heard talk of it on several occasions, but never anything specific. My general understanding is that it was thought best not to go crazy with amending the Act of Settlement, but to do the minimum damage possible, which is why this ill-thought out course was not taken, but I can't say for certain that it was ever seriously considered. It seems unlikely to me that Queen Mary, for instance, would have had any truck with it. john k 18:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prince of Wales?

"From his brother's ascension to the throne, on January 20, 1936, until his own accession, on December 11, 1936, Prince Albert held the style His Royal Highness, The Prince Albert, Prince of Wales, Duke of York, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland." Any source? – DBD does... 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope- that was my error. Copied from BRoy Style Guide, and didn't edit properly. Will fix now. --G2bambino 19:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military positions

Perhaps where I've put it isn't the right location, but George VI held the position of Commander in Chief of the Canadian Militia, Naval and Air forces through constitutional law, not as an honour. I also suspect he held other official positions within his militaries in his realms. The information therefore shouldn't be included within the section on his honours. --G2bambino 00:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I put it under honours using a rather broad definition of the term... If titles (which are legally-held) are listed on Honours page, then why not CiCships in under Honours in TSHA? Best solution I could think of... Any alternatives to suggest? – DBD 01:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fail GA

According to the criterias, everything that is likely to be challenged should have a direct (inline) citation. The articles does it very well in some parts, but other parts are failing. In particular the section "Early life" contains many statements of the sort, such as

the gruff Duke of York was certainly for all his censoriousness a deeply concerned and loving father and the publically austere Duchess had a frivolous and frolicsome side which she revealed only to her children Nevertheless, the hands-off conventions of English upper class child-rearing of the time allowed the Royal nanny to have a dominating role in their young lives. The nanny doted over Albert's brother, Prince Edward, while neglecting Albert. Albert developed a severe stammer that lasted for many years as well as chronic stomach problems. He also suffered from knock knees, and to correct this he had to wear splints, which were extremely painful. He was also forced to write with his right hand although he was a natural left-hander.

Where does all this come from? It doesn't appear to be common knowledge to me. And in the following paragraph:

Prince Edward had, according to almost everyone who ever knew him, an extraordinary and magnetic charm. No one felt his charms more strongly than the younger members of his family. In the isolation of their lives, he was the most attractive person they ever knew. In childhood they followed his leadership, while as young men they ardently admired him.

Oh, come on...

A reference would also be nice for the paragraph:

The growing likelihood of war erupting in Europe would dominate the reign of King George VI. Initially the King and Queen took an appeasement stance against Adolf Hitler, supporting the policy of Neville Chamberlain. The King and Queen greeted Chamberlain on his return from negotiating the Munich Agreement in 1938, and invited him to appear on the balcony of Buckingham Palace with them, sparking anger among anti-appeasement MPs including Winston Churchill.

(section "Reign")

and for this sentence:

Although the aim of the tour was nevertheless mainly political, to shore up Atlantic support for Britain in any upcoming war, the King and Queen were extremely enthusiastically received by the Canadian public and the spectre of Edward VIII's charisma was comprehensively dispelled.

What does extremely enthusiastically received actually refer to? What is the source for that? And in what way was the spectre of Edward VIII's charisma comprehensively dispelled.? Footnotes would be nice.

Other than that I don't have any complaints at this moment. Only a minor thing though: put "Further reading" beneath the reference section.

Fred-Chess 22:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I have made some of the suggested changes above but the page requires the removal the "citation needed" markers before renomination. DrKiernan 08:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to say that when you believe you have amended the concerns, you are welcome to resubmit the article as a GA candidate. / Fred-Chess 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Pass

I've read over the article, and feel that the concerns brought up by the previous reviewer, e.g. lack of citations, have been responded to and rectified. I would suggest that the flags under the Titles section be removed per WP:FLAGCRUFT. However, I'm passing this article as a GA. ErleGrey 15:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Main Picture

I would like to suggest to the community that we change from the current portrait, to this photograph Image:King George-VI.jpg The Photo shows the King in Military Uniform as the head of the armed services during the War. So much of George's reign is during the war and I feel that this image more represents what service men and women would view as there king, ie: a leader, rather than someone garnished in robes and jewels, added to the fact the current picture I do not think does him justice. What is everyone's view, would anyone have a problem if I changed it?--Duncanbruce 00:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Support ^† DBD 00:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the picture for now, it anyone has a problem please feel free to talk on these forums and I will of course remove it if needed --Duncanbruce 08:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose As I have said before that image is by Yousuf Karsh, and whilst its copyright may have expired in Canada, it is still in force outside of Canada until 2072. See WP:PD#Canadian images: Yousuf Karsh. According to The Official Web-site of the British Monarchy the copyright is owned by Camera Press. I agree that the current image is disappointing, but my understanding is that you can not claim fair use of a copyrighted image unless no other image showing the same information is available. That does not apply in this case. DrKiernan 08:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say it is impossible for them to impose copyright on an image they have already released into the public domain. Several other websites are using the image, I have decided to contact Camera Press and request consent for us to use this image. --Duncanbruce 11:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of confusion here, Camera Press own the rights to the Photograph within the UK for Printing etc, but wikipedia.org is a worldwide community where anyone can update. You cannot gaurentee that any photo/picture is completely out of copyright in all countries, for example any country can declare anything copyright. Because the photo is no longer in copyright in Canada and no one is clear who owns the copyright if anyone to worldwide web publishing I believe we have justification to keep the photograph. A Quick search using the Google Search engine produced several websites which are also using the photograph without approval so I believe the photograph is in contention over its use on the internet --193.63.27.195 12:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• wikipedia.org is a set of web-pages hosted on a US server which must adhere, at the very least, to US law. At this stage it is unclear whether the copyright is in force in the US, ordinarily it would be for 70 years after the photographer's death, i.e. until 2072. Camera Press claims to be the exclusive distributor of Karsh images and releases its pictures in the US through a US distributor - Retna pictures. Furthermore, it isn't yet clear that the picture is out of copyright in Canada, we have just assumed that based on information on wikipedia. Just because others break the law by stealing copyrighted work, does not give you the right to do the same. I believe Duncan's request for information from Camera Press is the best way forward as they will either claim ownership (as they did with the Karsh image of Einstein) or not. DrKiernan 13:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• The Photo is in Copyright within the UK, I have today spoken to Camera Press. They have offered us the photograph but they request a fee of £150 per year for its use, presuming that none of us wants to pay that, I have today removed the photograph, its important to note that as Dr.Kiernan suggested above, all the other websites using the photograph are in breach of copyright and can be sued. --Duncanbruce 13:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Titles

Should George and for that matter, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII and Victoria not be credited as either:

His Imperial Majesty, The King Emperor or Her Imperial Majesty, The Queen Empress?

Instead they seem to be just credited as His Majesty, The King Emperor?--Duncanbruce 22:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)