Talk:Gospel of Matthew

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Contents 1 Please read Authentic Matthew and Discuss! 2 Theology of Matthew 3 The Early Church had many diverse competing views. 4 The Emperor Constantine 5 That "M Source",Streeter 6 Title: suggest to restore "according to" 7 Encyclopedic? 8 Not good enough 9 Controversial assersion 10 authorship 11 Common Verses 12 Naming Scholars 13 Dating 14 TfD nomination of Template:Chapters in the Gospel of Matthew 15 Miscellaneous 16 Some other stuff 17 Summary 18 Dating 19 Recent chanced by Bbagot 20 Recent changes 21 see also Gospel of the Hebrews 22 Verse articles, to all who are interested 23 Recent Changes 24 Undue weight and Matthean priority 25 Odd links 26 Loaded terms

[edit] Please read Authentic Matthew and Discuss!

Only one Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew. See- Epiphanius
They too accept the Gospel of Matthew, and like the followers of Cerinthus and Merinthus, they use it alone. They call it the Gospel of the Hebrews, for in truth Matthew alone in the New Testament expounded and declared the Gospel in Hebrew using Hebrew script. (Epiphanius, Panarion 30.3.7)

Jerome says

• "In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and the Ebionites use which we have recently translated from Hebrew to Greek, and which most people call The Authentic Gospel of Matthew. . ." (Jerome, Commentary on Matthew 2)
• "In the Gospel of the Hebrews, written in the Chaldee and Syriac language but in Hebrew script, and used by the Nazarenes to this day (I mean the Gospel of the Apostles, or, as it is generally maintained, the Gospel of Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Caesarea). . ." (Jerome, Against Pelagius 3.2)
• "Matthew, also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in Hebrew script for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. This Gospel was afterwards translated into Greek (and the Greek has been lost) though by what author uncertain. The Hebrew original has been preserved to this present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilus diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having this volume transcribed for me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, Syria, who use it." (Jerome, On Illustrious Men 3)

Therefore the Gospel of the Hebrews was written by Matthew. However Gospel of Matthew found in the Bible was written much later by an unknown person who edited Mark , "Q" and "M" together --melissa (two edits knitted together by Wetman without dropping any text)

No, Jerome is not a 100% reliable source for historic fact. In fact, its much much less reliable.

[edit] Theology of Matthew

There doesn't seem to be much about the actual theology of Matthew and what the book says in the article. Would people agree that the entry needs some coverage of this, or not? --MHazell 23:11, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, (See GHeb Fragments above)-Fr.Bryan

How close to the text could it stay? Could it be a report rather than an essay? (broad hints eh) --Wetman 23:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Article! (hint taken) Fr.Bryan

Authentic Matthew's theology was Jewish in nature. If one reads the GHeb fragments above, one sees why the Church found it less than helpful. The Gospel of Matthew in the Bible has moved from its Jewish roots.

Well, I think that's debatable. Matthew is certainly the most Jewish of the four canonical gospels, to the exclusion of everyone else in places. And whether or not 'Authentic Matthew' (if such a document existed) was Jewish in nature isn't really the point. What this entry needs, in my view, is an NPOV examination of the theology of canonical Matthew - which involves dealing almost exclusively with the final form of the text, rather than any hypothetical documents/sources behind Matthew. --MHazell 11:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What this entry needs, in my view, is an NPOV examination of the theology of canonical Matthew - which involves dealing almost exclusively with the final form of the text, rather than any hypothetical documents/sources behind Matthew.

In other words, you want us to disregard the past two hundred years of biblical scholarship and treat Matthew ahistorically. Why would we do this? --Goethean 17:16, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, the 'other words' aren't what I actually wrote, are they? Sometimes I lament most biblical scholarship - whatever happened to looking at the (canonical) text of Matthew itself? All these theories about sources and authors etc., and we've ended up with a Wikipedia entry (as well as a good proportion of scholarship) that tells us almost nothing about the content of Matthew! Actually, to be fair, the synchronic approach to texts is where biblical studies has ended up in recent years, so like it or not, the 'final forms' of texts are (finally!) here to stay. One does not need to junk the last 200 years of scholarship, but it desperately needs reformulating. We need an awareness of history, but historical-criticism and source-criticism alone are just not good enough. That's my point, and I'll gladly admit my bias towards synchronic approaches to scripture. --MHazell 23:58, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As requested, I have now added a subsection [[Gospel of Matthew#Theology of canonical Matthew]]. Text is needed, but keep in mind that it has to be a report on the theology that Church writers (including Protestants) have actually derived from Matthew',' not a personal essay on what we think. --Wetman 01:01, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

But newly-added statements like " Actually, a radical Jewish sect was transforming itself into a new religion, which grew into Christianity" aren't going to help. The transformation, which happened over the course of the second century, was not happening in the pages of Matthew. The accomodation with Rome, which involved systematically marginalizing the Jewish Christians in Judea, was the lifework of Paul, not of the author of Matthew. The tactic is employed to move the church back into the first century: a familiar enough ambition but not good history. Why is there so much subterfuge about the earliest church? Is there really so much to suppress? so much to gloss over? so much to filter through official Catholic interpretation? How can Wikipedia stay straight with such pressures?... --Wetman 13:08, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Early Church had many diverse competing views.

The Early Church had many diverse competing views. On one extreme were the 'Judaisers'. They were established by James the Just and believed that Judaism was the one true religion, and that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. The Ebionites and other groups of Judiasers used only the Gospel of the Hebrews and rejected even Paul’s writings. They kept all the Hebrew rituals, did not believe in the Virgin Birth or the Holy Trinity, yet maintained that Jesus was one with God.

On the other extreme was Marcion. He and his followers were vehemently anti-Jewish in their beliefs. They rejected the Gospel of the Hebrews and all the other Gospels with the exception of a ‘revised’ Gospel of Luke.

Marcion argued that Christianity should be solely based on the Gospel of Love. The Old Testament writings should be totally ignored. He went so far as to say that Jesus’ mission was to overthrow Demiurge -- the fickle, cruel, despotic God of the Old Testament -- and replace Him with the Supreme God of Love whom Jesus came to reveal. This position, he said, was supported by the ten Epistles of St. Paul that Marcion also accepted. His writing had a profound effect upon the development of Christianity and the canon.

A third major group in the Early Church were the Gnostics. Gnosticism has as a basis ‘gnosis’, the secret, revealed knowledge of God. If the Gospel of the Hebrews was the basis of the Judaisers, and the Gospel of Luke the foundation of Marcion, then the Gospel of Thomas was the Gnostic Gospel.

The Apostle Thomas did not write the Gospel of Thomas, and Eusebius in his catalogue of Early Church writings put this work in his ‘spurious’ category of rejected works.

Higher Criticism has shown the Gospel of Thomas was originally composed in Greek and was a secondary Christian source based on the Gospel of the Hebrews and Gnostic writings. It is comprised of a list of quotations from Jesus, and in many ways resembles ‘Q’.

No. (a) Demiurge=gnosticism. the demiurge is an entirely gnostic concept and only occurs in gnostics. Therefore if marcion believed in the demiurge he was gnostic, leaving only 2 groups rather than 3. And you have forgotten the Paul/Gentile group. (b) Eusebius is not a reliable witness. There is absolutely no way of knowing whether the apostle Thomas did or did not write the Gospel of Thomas from the extant texts, trying to draw one or other conclusion in this matter is making an assumption about (i) the other works and (ii) thomas. (c) The Gospel of Thomas has NOT been shown by higher criticism to be a secondary source. In fact, quite the opposite - it is far more likely that a gospel such as Hebrews, or Matthew, took the Gospel of Thomas, and Mark, mixed them together and fleshed it out, than it is that someone went to all the effort of stripping out the sayings from one of those gospels and made them totally abstract rather than retaining small parts of the gospel such as "he said this in bethany when ... happened".

Unlike the Gnostics, Marcion did not believe that there was any special or secret salvific knowledge while he did believe in a church organization and hierarchy (as long as it was a Marcionic organization and hierarchy); therefore, his belief in the demiurge is insufficient to put him in the same camp with the Gnostics. Rather, it only shows that he had an idea in common with them. Consequently, the statement that "the demiurge is an entirely gnostic concept and only occurs in gnostics" is not correct. Milesnfowler 17:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Emperor Constantine

The Emperor Constantine wanted these divisions within Christianity ended. During his time many works, from the Gospel of the Hebrews to the Gospel of Thomas, vanished.

Yet it is hard to erase history. The Gospel of the Hebrews can be found in the writings of the Church Fathers, while the Gospel of Thomas was discovered in 1945 at Nag Hammadi.

From the time of Jesus to Constantine, there was much debate among the early Christians. Studying the writings of the early scholars and knowing of their biases can help to see the Jesus of History more clearly.--Melissa

No. They were still around in the 6th century when the Gelasian decree was drawn up declaring them heresy.

Constantine himself took little part in the setting of the canon, leaving that to others. There are several critical moments in the development of the canon, beginning as early as the second century (the Moriturian canon, for example) and continuing over hundreds of years. One of those critical moments came in 367 with the decree of Athanasius who had known Constantine (however, Constantine was long dead by this time). Athanasius set forth the 27 books of the New Testament, and while similar lists had been made before, this was the first time the list exactly matched the modern list. (Even so, the earliest known whole New Testaments include books not on Athanasius's list.) Any work not on this approved list was condemned. It is commonly guessed that it was Athanasius's decree that provoked the hiding of the Nag Hammadi library by monks from the monastery of St. Pachomius; this conclusion is due to evidence that these books were last repaired in the fourth century before Athanasius's decree. But this is not to say that earlier and later moments in the development of a canon were not also important; it is just that every time Church Fathers proscribed heretical texts, we see evidence that some Christians continued to read them. For example, the Gospel of Peter was repeatedly proscribed beginning in the second century; yet there is evidence that it was still being read by some in the eighth century or later. Milesnfowler 17:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That "M Source",Streeter

In a revision of 06:12, 19 Feb 2005, User:Fr.Bryan added the seemingly knowing remark "Some believe the author also used the M document." I surmise that this is a hypothetical document similar to the "Q Gospel" invented to explain some characteristics of Matthew not otherwise accounted for. I can find no reference to an "M Document" however. Presenting such an obscure hypothesis without a word of disambiguation is not very reader-friendly. Now that we are all fully aware of how ignorant we are, might we have some illumination here, and a brief entry at the redlink? --Wetman 20:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nope, never heard of it. --Goethean 20:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyone else read of an "M Document" source? --Wetman 20:58, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow, there's nothing on Google, except for about 15 mirrors of User:Fr.Bryan's comment. --goethean 21:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have heard of M. It is an extension of the two-source hypothesis. Basically, M=the bits not in Q or Mark. Likewise L exists for luke. It is essentially whatever the source for things like the infancy stories was. Whether it existed as a text or just as oral heresay, or was just made up totally, is a different matter, but essentially it is extending the principle. M is widely known in the theory, it isn't a wierd thing, its just a bit pointless as its like saying "that source that isn't Q or Mark, and has the random bits matthew adds" - it hasn't got much to distinguish it, unlike Q, which is unusual in being mostly just sayings, and it was only used by Matthew, so isn't that significant. If you check out google, there is hardly anything about the "Acts of Thecla and Paul", but it is known to exist.

Well, the statement stands above, though I've removed it from the article now. To judge from his talk page the original contributor seems to have been disaffected with Wikipedia. --Wetman 00:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

People talk about an M that's a hypothetical source for what's unique to Matthew, just as they talk about an L that's behind what's unique to Luke. Sometimes people refer to the "Four-Document Hypothesis"--Mark, Q, L, and M--rather than the "Two-Document Hypothesis"--Mark and Q. Josh Cherry 01:44, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's your redlink. That's your cue. A new article subject. Then the "people" you're referring to are following Burnett Hillman Streeter, The Four Gospels : A Study of Origins (1924), which— I understand— multiplied the hypothetical sources, inventing a separate "source" for every unique passage. So that's the "M Document" eh. Isn't that somewhat obscure, not to have a little disambiguating context? But perhaps you'd set the statement into enough context to make sense to the ordinary Wikipedia reader and return it to the article... --Wetman 04:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the topic is obscure. Any New Testament scholar would know what you meant by "M", and it's covered in introductory texts, various one-volume references, and articles is the likes of Bible Review. But this article sure didn't help. I'm not the person to write Four-Document Hypothesis, but I'll see about mentioning M here with some context. Josh Cherry 12:51, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The text now reads "Some believe that a third source, referred to as M and also hypothetical, lies behind the material in Matthew that has no parallel in Mark or Luke." Some believe that good sentences never begin "Some believe." In this case, is it Streeter 1924 behind that smokescreen? There's a fundamental misconception at work: hypothetical source documents are only required when two texts inexplicably repeat identical material, and when neither seems to depend on the other. Material unique to a document requires no preceding document: compare the principle in logic called Occam's Razor. An "M Document" simply as mentioned violates normal critical principles. Something must be muddled here: no one would have printed this as it presently stands. --Wetman 04:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Easy there, my aquatic friend. I'm not sure why people talk about M and L sources since the authors of Matthew and Luke could presumably have composed, from scratch, the portions of their gospels that are unique. But they do. It's mainstream scholarship. I'm just reporting that. Josh Cherry 05:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In which case, M and L would be "the bits Matthew and Luke made up, respectively", and still useful to distinguish and study.

Those original bits are not presumed to come from pre-existing documents in the real world. Shakespeare had sources for Hamlet. The rest of Hamlet is not attributed to an "H Document" because one does not unnecessarily multiply causes. This just can't be what was intended, because it wouldn't have got to print without someone noticing that it violated ordinary logic and basic scholarly principles. We must have a crossed wire somewhere. --Wetman 23:09, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I hope this will be helpful-Melissa

The Priority of Mark: The Four Source Hypothesis

Scholars kept trying to refine the theories to explain more of both the similarities and differences in the Synoptics. That search led B. Streeter (1924) to modify the Two Source Hypothesis by expanding the number of posited sources. He rejected the idea of an early form of Mark, and saw Matthew and Luke using the canonical Mark as a source. Yet, for the material unique to each of those two Gospels, he also posited a separate source that he labeled M for Matthew and L for Luke. In other words, Matthew had access not only to Mark but also to his own M source, while Luke also had access to Mark but also to his own L source. Both Matthew and Luke depended on Mark, but were written independently of each other. He agreed with the earlier Two Document theory that both Matthew and Luke had access to a sayings collection (logia or Q) unavailable to Mark, but also posited that the L and Q sources were combined first into an early version of Luke that was later combined with the material from Mark to produce the canonical Luke.

This became known as the Four Source Hypothesis. The four original sources were Mark, L, M, and Q, with Matthew using Mark, M, and Q while Luke used Mark, L, and Q. Through the remainder of the 20th century there were various challenges and refinements of Streeter's hypothesis, such as Parker (1953) who posited an early version of Matthew (proto-Matthew) as the primary source of both Matthew and Mark, and a Q source used by Matthew and Luke, with Mark also providing material for Luke.

I've already stated the case, but perhaps it didn't fully sink in: "There's a fundamental misconception at work: hypothetical source documents are only required when two texts inexplicably repeat identical material, and when neither seems to depend on the other. Material unique to a document requires no preceding document: compare the principle in logic called Occam's Razor." These are axiomatic when dealing with texts and sources. Without applying these principles of logic, an imagined source can be "posited" behind every unique phrase: do you see the difference? No matter either way. --Wetman 09:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The text provided by Melissa is helpful for knowing and understanding what actual scholars argue and believe about this, and how the term "M" is used. Hence it is relevant to what the article should report. Your "case" is your personal take on it, and not so relevant to the article. Perhaps you believe that you have refuted Streeter with your invocation of Occam's Razor, but until you've convinced the world of Biblical scholarship of their "fundamental misconception", that doesn't matter for the article. I think that if you reread what you wrote you will see that it is presented in a patronizing manner, as though anyone who would continue to talk about what scholars like Streeter said after seeing you throw Occam's Razor around would have to be mentally deficient. Josh Cherry 13:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure the average Wikipedia reader has understood my general point about unnecessary multiplication of source documents. Perhaps some reader who has more fully digested and understood Streeter's thesis will be able to present it in a way that does it better justice. --Wetman 06:24, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

While I agree that 'M' doesn't make logical sense, the writings of F.F. Bruce also mention that it exists, so it is a theory that was picked up on and given prominence whether or not it was deserved. People don't get published and famous unless they can find something to write about. Bbagot 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) bbagot

Source doesn't necessarily mean document - as I understand it 'M' refers to whatever source or sources were used separate from 'Q'. Rich Farmbrough 18:11 6 June 2006 (UTC).

Searched the net again, and hope this will be helpful--Melissa

12. R. Brown, The Birth of the Messiah: A commentary on the Infancy Narratives in Matthew and Luke (NY: Doubleday, 1977) and The Death of the Messiah (NY: Doubleday, 1994). For Brown’s discernment of a three-part "format" in the infancy account of birth, flight, and return, see Birth, pp. 110-113. For Brown’s characterization of the social setting as "ethos" see Death, p. 1345; for his definition of popular narrative, Death, p. 1304, n. 41; for his description of "folklorist" features in Matthew, see Death, pp. 60-62. Brown sees a connection between this ethos and the later gospel of Peter; for his discussion of the gospel of Peter in relation to this, Death, p. 1345. Although we cannot address it here, this stratum also contains the anti-Pharisaic sentiments in the Gospel. The special material of Matthew is, of course, usually termed the M source. Senior, among others, would attribute this "special material" to the evangelist himself. If we accept Brown’s source theory, we have a situation in which the intertextual narrative struggle is positioned between the Mark Source and the M Source.

Just to retain the duly critical outlook concerning R. Brown's scholarship see e.g. Peter D. Howard, The Tragedy in the Work of Father Raymond Brown, S.S. (1999?) [1]; Dave Armstrong, The Modernist, Secularist Historicism of Raymond Brown and Brian Tierney [2]

Portress 08:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

---

The article as it stands makes somewhat obscure references to "Streeter" and "Parker (1953)" without much to indicate who Streeter and Parker are. It's possible to get a vague sense of Streeter and Parker from this talk page, but a casual reader shouldn't have to look here. Perhaps someone more up on Biblical scholarship than I am could expand or clarify these references? --Josiah Rowe 12:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Since no one else seems to have stepped up to the plate, I expanded the references to Burnett Hillman Streeter and Pierson Parker, based on this and this. Now, perhaps a real Biblical scholar (that is, not me) can create pages for those redlinks? It'd be greatly appreciated. —Josiah Rowe 02:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The M hypothesis should not be referred to as an M Document. It is sometimes referred to as an M Source, but the understanding is that Matthew himself might be that source, which is why it is called M. Scholars often call it the M material, which is more neutral. Milesnfowler 17:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title: suggest to restore "according to"

The Greek – in the case of all four Gospel accounts – has kata, Latin secondo, both meaning according to. In other words [The] Good News according to .... There is a lively discussion as to the genre of the Gospels, hence their precise title, while not original but very early all the same, may be considered significant. (It is easy to see, why one often encounters of, even in scholarly writings ... it is 9 characters and 1 space shorter, and rolls better off the tongue.)Portress 03:02, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

As you suggest, the applied titles are simply a convention. A Wikipedia reader who enters Gospel According to Matthew is already redirected to the page. The link "What links here" at the left of the article page will show you the links that would need to be fixed, before you moved on the the other gospels, in order to maintain consistency. Then you'd be renaming the Gospel according to Thomas too? And Gospel of Peter? The "according to" is a rather specific assertion, which doesn't always hold up to critical analysis. --Wetman 04:33, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear Wetman, No – what I did suggest was that the often encountered English "shortcut"-references to the canonical Gospel accounts are sheer laziness. A mistake does not eventually become correct because many keep on repeating it! Secondly, the redirection needs to be from "Gospel of Matthew" to "The Gospel according to Matthew", unless Wikipedia wants to look stupid (sorry, that's me assuming that Wikipedia intends to give preference to accuracy over sloppiness and that all its contributors share this lofty aim). Thirdly, I note that you object to kata as being a "specific assertion"; but may I recommend that you take up that argument with the near-contemporary koine speakers responsible for the earliest "inscriptions"/titles (and perhaps also with the early koine-to-Latin translators who rendered kata with secondo). Unless you want to argue that the titles of the canonical Gospel accounts were composed in English? – As regards your question concerning the apocryphal gospels, I have not seen them in the original language and therefore cannot comment on the accurate English rendering of their titles/superscriptions. – What pray is the purpose of these your comments other than wasting time and computer space? Why accuse me of the desire to "rename"? And must I explain to you the difference between "the message according to Wetman" and "the message of Wetman"? And do I need to impress upon you the need for the integrity of a scholarly reliable translation, and that exegesis is an entirely separate task? Portress 00:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedic?

Is detailed commentary on each verse in Matthew encyclopedic? Perhaps this is something for Wikisource rather than here? -SocratesJedi | Talk 04:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good point--Melissa

If commentary is placed elsewhere, it would be in wikibooks, not wikisource. Wikisource is for the texts only. --Peter Kirby 22:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not good enough

In the statement It should also be noted that the prominent liberal theologian Dr. John Robinson, concluded that Matthew's Gospel was written as early as 40 A.D we are told that Dr Robinson was prominent, that he was "liberal" and we are given his dates. We are told that it should be noted, but we are not told how he came to his conclusions. This mark of authoritarian training also disfigures Soviet science. --Wetman 06:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Even worse, the statement mischaracterizes Robinson's views. Stephen C. Carlson 01:20, 2005 September 2 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial assersion

Some critics charge that some of the passages in this book are anti-Semitic, and that these passages have shaped the way that many Christians viewed Jews, especially in the Middle Ages. On the other hand, the Old Testament prophets had strong words to the Jews in terms of correction. A majority of the phrases spoken by Jesus in this gospel were worded against the major Jewish parties of the time, primarily citing them for hypocrisy and a misunderstanding of the Jewish religion. Actually, a radical Jewish sect was transforming itself into a new religion, which grew into Christianity.

The above is quite a statement. It is one thing to claim that the book is itself anti-Semitic, and another to say that it has been interpreted to fuel anti-Semitism. Since scholarly consensus is that the book of Matthew has a Jewish perspective, at least more than any other of the gospels, this is quite a statement indeed, and needs to be backed up with reputable sources if made.--Gandalf2000 15:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] authorship

The line "However, most modern scholars are content to let it remain anonymous." is completely inapropriate. These types of generalizations do not belong without measurable evidence. This line should be deleted.--Heesung 16:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how the original sentence was "completely inapropriate", but I am totally open for rewording. However, I am not fine with leaving out the position that a) the gospel is anonymous and b) most critical scholars do not think the author was an apostle. I have added a paragraph with references to earlychristianwrittings.com's entry on Matthew. I'm clearly open to suggests or revisions. But I wanted to drop in on the talk page before more reverts go on.--Andrew c 22:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Common Verses

I just noticed changes (by 66.30.25.205) in the common verse count in the section Authorship. can anyone validate this change?--Heesung 18:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming Scholars

Some of the scholars being cited, including Herman N. Ridderbos and Francis Write Beare, are somewhat obscure and seem to be merely cited for fairly non-controversial positions also held by most other scholars. So we really need to mention their names? (Streeter, on the other hand, was one responsible for hypothesizing M.) Stephen C. Carlson 02:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely that "most modern scholars are content to let it remain anonymous." However, Heesung removed the previous wording. Without the last paragraph, you get the impression that critical scholars support the view of the Church Fathers. So I added the last paragraph, and attempted to avoid weasel words while also citing sources. Feel free to edit it as you wish, removing the names and citations. I just wanted to make sure that the 'fairly non-controvesial position held by most other scholars' was presented in the section on authorship.--Andrew c 16:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dating

I feel like the dating section is not NPOV balanced. We should present all sides, but make it clear what the majority scholarly position is, and don't give undue weight to minority positions. Right now, there is no real discussion on WHY people date the gospels to particular dates, and too much pre-70, not enough 80-100. I was hoping others could help flesh out this section, because my sources at the time are limited (namely earlychristianwritings.com).--Andrew c 03:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Inasmuch as dating depends at least partly on matters also discussed under "Authorship" I feel that the evidence for the Markan priority hypothesis would not be amiss here; however, there is a link on this page to the Markan Priority article, so perhaps we would be redundant to discuss that on this page as well. Perhaps a summary of key points of Markan priority under authorship as groundwork for subsequent comments regarding dating under this section? Milesnfowler 16:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Chapters in the Gospel of Matthew

Template:Chapters in the Gospel of Matthew has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Andrew c 14:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So we're going to go with the "Detailed Contents" organization instead, is that the idea? Seems fine to me, although we're probably going to have to get pretty detailed in some of the descriptions. Kc8ukw 23:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

Matthew in Koine Greek was most widely spelt with two θ, and not one τ and one θ. Chris Weimer 02:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't necessarily agree with "most widely", I agree with your changes. Here is some more info I found on the web:

THE TITLE The Textus Receptus has "The Holy Gospel according to Matthew" (το κατα Ματθαιον αγιον Ευαγγελιον), though the Elzevirs omit "holy," not agreeing here with Stephanus, Griesbach, and Scholz. Only minuscules (cursive Greek manuscripts) and all late have the adjective. Other minuscules and nine uncials including W (the Washington Codex of the fifth century), C of the fifth century (the palimpsest manuscript) and Delta of the ninth together with most Latin manuscripts have simply "Gospel according to Matthew" (Ευαγγελιον κατα Ματθαιον). But Aleph and B the two oldest and best Greek uncials of the fourth century have only "According to Matthew" (Κατα Μαθθαιον) (note double th) and the Greek uncial D of the fifth or sixth century follows Aleph and B as do some of the earliest Old Latin manuscripts and the Curetonian Syriac. It is clear, therefore, that the earliest form of the title was simply "According to Matthew."[3]

--Andrew c 04:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The name Ματθαίος that appears in some ancient scripts also as Μαθθαίος is a translation to greek from the aramaic name Ματταύ (sorry I don't know the spelling in aramaic). Sometimes it is also written in greek as Ματταθίας and Ματθίας which is the short form. In aramaic it litterally means "gift from God" therefore the direct translation to greek can also be Θεόδωρος (Theodoros) or Θεοδώρητος (Theodoritos). cite: Παγκόσμιο Βιογραφικό Λεξικό (1987). Article: Ματθαίος

The spelling Ματθαίος is traditionally used in Encyclopedias and other referencing sources. --Marinos

All the modern references, including the celebrated UBS 4, all have Μαθθαίον. It's the original spelling, and it ought to be kept that way. (As far as "widely" I'm talking about the earliest attestations, not modern corruptions). And the spelling in Aramaic (in Hebrew characters) is מתי. Chris Weimer 00:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What version would the New Testaments read in modern Greece, for instance, have? If that's Ματθαίος then we should include both names, I should think. john k 01:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

κατά Ματθαίον is mostly used but I agree we should keep both spellings Marinos 14:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Note Andrew's comment above - the received text uses tau, rather than theta. The received text is at least as important as whatever the earliest form may have been. john k 01:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some other stuff

I've taken the liberty of removing the words "some other stuff" from the detailed description, and adding the word approximate. It seems as though it was an author's attempt at going about the chapter by chapter thing by listing other pages that described each chapter. I think that a fine soultion to the debate, but if you can't find an article describing, let's say "Jesus calms a storm" (between sermon on mound and calling of Levi), don't put in a place holder of (...some other stuff...). You can look back in the history to see what can be added, but the place holder is very unencyclopedic, expecally for one of the big four books of the bible. Same goes for Luke.--Rayc 04:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

Is it just me, or is the Summary section extremely informal and oddly formatted? Was this on purpose? I ask so I don't make changes to something that was already discussed. Kc8ukw 17:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. I reverted these additions because they are non-encyclopedic. If you think you can salvage these additions, feel free to. A plot summary section could be helpful to this article, but I felt that anon's additions were not. I hope I wasn't too bold. It appears as if the same editor did the same thing to the Mark article.--Andrew c 15:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dating

I believe we are giving undue weight to the minority view. I think we need to expland the section on the later dating, and perhaps make the minority view a bit more concise. Any volunteers?-Andrew c

[edit] Recent chanced by Bbagot

Here is the dif. I'll make a note to my objection point by point, so please reference the dif.

• "Some believe" vs. "Scholars agree". "some" is weasely. On top of that, name a single scholar who claims the Gospels were all independently written without either relying on each other or similar documents at some point.

I will rewrite this to be more clear. bbagot

I do not believe your rewrite helped. What is problematic about "scholars agree"? Can you cite a scholar who doesn't hold the position that Matthew used other sources?--Andrew c 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

You're asking me to disprove a negative. The claim of extra sources should be present, baring that, the default position if Matthew is written first is no extra sources are necessary, especially if early dates are sighted. Zahn and Belser both believe Matthew was written first, and in a Hebrew version now lost. Patrizi believes Matthew was written in the late 30's, Aberle 37, and Belser in 41 to 42. Unless by sources you mean he talked with the other Apostles, then no, there are scholars who do not believe in a need beyond Matthew's eyewitness testimony. Bbagot 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

That is a good point that some people believe Matthew was written first without sources. However, the "scholars" you cite are all from the Catholic encyclopedia that is voer 100 years old (however, you did cite scholars, as I asked, so there was nothing about disproving a negative). I feel that this issue could be solved with a compromise: "Most scholars suggest". It uses weasel words, but that is to avoid saying the view is unanimous. It tones down "speculate" to "suggest", and it introduces who holds this view where "many" is clearly unacceptable.--Andrew c 15:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I assume we are both in agreement that there are other scholars? You seemed to be questioning if there were any at all, a position that I found surprising. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

• This was the view of the early church. What was, the Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis? Furthermore, this section is not about the early church view, it is about the scholarly view. There is no need for this commentary. There is another section already on the early church view.

I see no section devoted to the early church view. Under the section authorship, where this occurs, the view of the early church is very relevant. As for your comment on the Augustianian and Griesbach hypothesis, they are in parentheses, therefore it can be deduced that the statement following is in regards to the preceding sentence. bbagot

I apologize, I got confused with a couple other articles that have a more expanded section on the early church's view. The first paragraph of this section deals with the church's view, and this information should probably go there. However, the way you phrased it in the current version is acceptable, but it wouldn't hurt to expand on the Church Father's view in the first paragraph of this section.

All that said, you added the "Another view". Is this part WP:V? What is the name of this view? Can you cite some scholars who hold this view?--Andrew c 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the apology. We all make mistakes from time to time. The article is not broken down into a section for church view and non-church view, but rather by subject. It matches the subject where it has been placed. That other view I've mentioned was the default position of the church before Q was hypothetically put forth as a possibility and before questions arose as to Mark being the earlier gospel. It is still talked about and considered in higher Christian study. I am not aware of the formal name and hopefully over time someone will add that information. Bbagot 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

Ah, the Farrer Hypothesis. I've added information in regards to this. I have removed the sentence about "other sources" in regards to Mt. priority. Some theories do include other sources like proto-Matthew and an Ur-Gospel. --Andrew c 15:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Based upon your desire to record majority and minority views, why not leave what I said and add an extra point about a minority opinion believing in a proto-Matthew or Ur-Gospel? Personally I don't care about majority or minority designations unless a view has almost no support at all (I've seen plenty of other articles in Wikipedia that discuss the issues without declaring which is the majority) but if it is an issue to you and you wish to have continuity, then that would seem to be the course of action. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) bbagot

At some point I also have to question just what a "scholar" is. I see a breakdown occurring between Christian and secular scholars. What I'm seeing so far is an underlying view that only secular scholars count, or at the very least liberal Christian ones. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

• in part because the destruction of Jerusalem is never mentioned summarizing the dating to this one point belittles scholarship on both sides. Furthermore, the whole issue is over whether Matthew 24's "prophecy" could have been written before the temple destruction. So if this "prophecy" was written with knowledge of the temple's destruction, it is inaccurate to state that the destruction of Jerusalem is never mentioned.

The actual destruction is not mentioned, only the prophecy pointing to its future occurrence. Like it or not, that is a major point for those who believe in a pre-destruction view, which is where it was discussed. The belief, according to this viewpoint, is that if the Gospel was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, then there would have been mention of its fulfillment. bbagot

Well if this issue is over prophecy vs. actual knowledge of an event, we should perhaps word this phrase "in part because the mention of the destruction of Jerusalem is believed to be a prophecy". Another question, why do we have a reason explaining "in part" why for the early date, but not for the later date? Giving more information "why" for one POV and not the other seems to favor that one.--Andrew c 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, the text doesn't state there has been a destruction of Jerusalem, only that at some future point the stones in the temple will be torn down. There is no follow up stating that this event ever occurred. I've added information that is usually sited for the early dating view in a place where it was lacking. I did so in a concise and largely unobtrusive form that explains a viewpoint germain to the article. I see no difficulty with this decision. Bbagot 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

It mentions a destruciton of the temple. Whether this reference is The Destruction of The Temple in 70 is at the heart of this issue. The destruction of the temple is clearly referenced. Some people believe that this is a prophecy, and other people believe it was written after the temple's destruction. It is 100% false to say that a temple destruction is not mentioned. And you didn't address why it isn't POV to explain why one view is held but not another. There is already a whole big paragraph on the earlier date, and not a word on the later date. This is not NPOV because the majority view isn't give due weight. Your addition even further tipped the balance in the wrong direction. --Andrew c 15:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, it's a prophecy of a future occurrence. It does not come to pass within the pages of Matthew. To rewrite this will take a new section describing these views if you truly believe the fraction of a sentence added is misleading. I see it being consistent with the early view, which is what is being discussed and referenced, since it is a direct belief held by the proponents of that view. I still don't see what is "wrong" with that. I chose to add information to one view because I saw it was left out. I was not aware I was then expected to make a similar addition to the late view for balance. The entire section is rather small, so I don't see your concern with one side monopolizing it. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

The majority view, at least in our country, favors an early date. A subset of the population has a different majority, although how that subset is determined is unclear. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

• "Some" vs. "A minority" Once again, weasel words are being introduced. Is there any reason to dispute Aramaic primacy as anything but a minority view? please consider these things, and respond to them if anyone feels strongly about keeping the changes in the article. Thank you.--Andrew c 01:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

"Most contemporary scholars..." is referenced earlier in the section describing the opposite viewpoint. That isn't changed by the usage of "some scholars" below. The constant use of "most" (or majority) and "minority" then needing to be restated seems condescending. bbagot 10:42 PM 5/17/2006

I believe this section, before your edits, followed a similar treatment used in the Jesus article in regards to the Jesus-Myth. Please see the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph at Jesus. Unless you have information otherwise, it is not condescending to state that among scholars, Aramaic Priority is a minority view. There is nothing wrong with stating alternate POVs. In fact, it is part of being NPOV. But the other side of the coin is to represent each view point according to who holds these view, and to what extent it is prevelent. Your edits seems to hide the fact that this view is not populous.--Andrew c 23:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

As stated, "Most contemporary scholars" is already referenced above. It is already understood that alternate viewpoints discussed within the same paragraph will be minority. There is no hiding. The word some is actually more expressive in this case than merely minority as some shows the view is held by more than one scholar whereas minority alone gives no further indication. Bbagot 08:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

I have to disagree that "a minority" is implied and that "some" is more expressive. Could there be a middle ground or another word phrase used like "a small number of scholars"?--Andrew c 15:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It's logical flow. A majority being specified for a view up front carries through to the other views listed in the same section. Try putting in actual values and see if that changes your understanding: 7 out of 10 scholars believe Matthew was originally written in Greek. Some scholars believe it was written in Aramaic... (See?) The use of "small" alone is troubling. Consider the following and see if you agree: Most people in America are Christian. A small number are non-Christian... Would you have any problem with that? I would. Nevertheless, I'll see what I can do to reword the section in a manner that works. Bbagot 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

[edit] Recent changes

More changes, more content.

1. while there is no reference to the actual occurrence. I do not know what you are trying to say here. Well, I have a feeling I do know what you are trying to say here. Regardless, this statement is unclear and needs to be more descriptive. Are you trying to say that the gospel only covers events during the life and death of Jesus, so any even that happens (lets say) 40 years in the future isn't directly covered by the plot?
2. You have expanded the reasoning for the an early date even more. Keep in mind that the majority view is a later date. We are already giving the minority view undue weight. Look at the size of the 2nd paragraph in that section. Next, you are adding information to the wrong section. There is an introductary paragraph (that didn't have any explanations of views before you edited it). Then you came along and added the temple destruction bit for the earlier view. I complained about undude weight and you added the bit about the temple destruction for the later view. Now you are adding even more support for the earlier view in this first introductory paragraph, while ignoring that the whole next paragraph goes on to explain the earlier view (minus the last sentence).
3. Smaller. I think its funny you altered the Luke article to say "A small number of scholars" in regards to the claim the author of Luke was female, but are resisting "small" in regards to Aramaic premacy. I think part of the issue is that Aramaic primacy is different from Matthean primacy. Where the latter is a smaller subsection of the former. Regardless, smaller doesn't really sound that gramatically sound to me. What is your exact issue with "small" (seeing as that you don't object to its use outright)?

Perhaps, you may want to try bringing up some proposals here on talk, and trying to get some consensus before implimenting them? Just an idea.--Andrew c 21:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Much of what you are questioning is already answered above. Why not just continue that thread and add questions as needed instead of starting new?

1. It isn't directly reported. Imagine a scene from the 1930's where a person predicts that within a generation we'll send a man to the moon and his prediction is written down and recorded. Is that the same thing as the moonshot occurring years in the future?

2. What criteria do you use to determine the majority view? I find this to be one of the areas that is the most unclear. I also reject the idea that we need to try to match the number of lines to our individual concepts of the percentage of people that we feel hold that view. In my opinion a neutral point of view is one that reports the factual positions of both sides without concern for needing to fit in a box of not going over a certain percentage of the article. I write about what I know. I do not consider myself negligent because I did not fill in information for an alternate viewpoint with at least as many lines or more. Frankly, I don't see this occurring in other areas of Wikipedia either.

3. I believe the view that Luke was written by a woman is far less prevelent than the view that Matthew was first written in Aramaic. I wrote according to that belief. If you had other information then that would be addressed. If the total number of people holding the view really is a small number, then the use of the word small is ok. I'll copy and paste what I wrote above that shows an inappropriate use of the word small as you were wishing it to be used as a foil to the majority opinion... The use of "small" alone is troubling. Consider the following and see if you agree: Most people in America are Christian. A small number are non-Christian... Would you have any problem with that? I would.

Bbagot 06:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

1. I still think it is worded properly and reads fine without it. Could you maybe suggest a different wording?

2.I also reject the idea that we need to try to match the number of lines to our individual concepts of the percentage of people that we feel hold that view. No one is trying to be a pencil pusher, but there is the major issue of "undue weight", which a major part of the NPOV policy. In my opinion a neutral point of view is one that reports the factual positions of both sides without concern for needing to fit in a box of not going over a certain percentage of the article. We should present the factual positions of both sides. We shouldn't present an argument and rebuttal section. We should also explain who hold what view, how prevelent it is, and cite as many sources as necessary. It is not NPOV to present a view that goes against scholarly consensus in more depth and detail than the scholarly consensus itself. I did not fill in information for an alternate viewpoint... I write about what I know. Here is a good wikipedia exercise, try writing for the other side every once and awhile. Try editing articles that aren't controversial (that don't have 'sides'). These exercises not only contribute to wikipedia positively, but also help build good editing practices.

3. I do not have a problem with your hypothetical wording comparison. I think "smaller" sounds awkward. I proposed "a small number of" because you objected to "a minority of". Maybe the issue isn't the wording, but how many scholars actually hold this position (I think it is a minority position, but you don't like putting categories on words like this, so you were content with "some"). I'm not sure how we can resolve this.--Andrew c 17:26, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we have almost reached a happy medium in regards to the new additions. Here are the remaining issues. You removed the fuller citation and longer quote by Beare. I am not exactly sure why you did that, so I have re-added the blanked content. while there is no reference to this event being fulfilled. still sounds strange to me. I feel the article reads fine without it. There is no extra information given, and it seems to be POV pushing. I may still misunderstand your intention about this clause, so can we try to work it out on talk, or present different wordings before editing it back into the article? Please? You used the phrase "appears to be" for the early view, and " they believe" for the later view. I have changed the latter to reflect the format of the former, so favoritism doesn't creep into the article. You removed the sentence His writings have been hotly contested. in regards to redating the papyrus. While this may not be the best wording, it needs to be made clear that no one accepts this earlier dating. Saying it is contested is more neutral than saying no one accepts it. Finally, in regards to Aramaic primacy. "The vast majority of contemporary scholars... A minority of scholars" vs. "Most contemporary scholars... A smaller number of scholars". I still do not like the word "smaller" (nor "some"). Is there any other sugestions to make this work? Anyway, I would also appreciate any other imput on these issues from other editors as well!--Andrew c 15:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the fuller part of Beare's quote that went into commentary. His belief that Matthew was the product of a 2nd or 3rd generation Christian writer is notable conclusion, the followup about the name being kept only for conveniance is commentary. It's a witty quote, but doesn't add anything. I would hope you would agree that we should keep this out. We seemed to be agreement in Luke on this issue. I've expanded the conservative view of the destruction of the temple. It's necessary in some form to get the point across. The dating view on why Matthew is pre the destruction of Jerusalem is not supported just by Jesus making a prophecy. It's supported by that in tandem with no mention being made of the prophecy being fullfilled. I haven't looked at the word phrases "appears to be" and "they believe". If there is an inconsistency in similar circumstances then I have no difficulty with making it consistent. I haven't looked into the other small word changes. I'll read the article again tomorrow and see. Bbagot 16:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC) Bbagot

I agree that the Cadbury quote on Luke wasn't encyclopedic because it was "witty" and not that informative. However, the Beare quote seems appropriate. I do not see how it is "witty" or "commentary". I have read similar explanations in other introductory, college level textbooks. It answers the question "well if you are saying the Gospel is anonymous, why then are you calling it 'Matthew'?" Here is a quote from Ehrman I'll continue to call them by their traditional names, even though we don't know their real identity. I'm going to add a "citation needed" tag to the claim about the temple, even though I asked you kindly not to add that part back to the article so we could work out a different phrasing on talk, but I guess you missed that request. And then I want to work on an overhaul for that section that would reflect more the format of Luke's dating section. Also, any comment about the "hotly contested" part you removed?--Andrew c 21:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] see also Gospel of the Hebrews

The reason for putting a see also at the top to the Gospel of the Hebrews, is because what little evidence we have suggests that the Gospel of the Hebrews is more likely to be by Matthew than is the one primarily discussed here. Bejnar 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue is, how many people are going to enter in the search box "Gospel of Matthew" when the page they were looking for was the "Gospel of the Hebrews"? Furthermore, your claim is not a unanimous view, and in fact, is a rather controversial POV. This sort of controversy should (and is) mentioned in the article, and there is a link to the other page, but I feel that this does not qualify for a disambiguation "see also" at the top of the page. You may want to review WP policy on these topics.--Andrew c 16:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Good one. It's sounding good, but this gospel looks great! Gospels have poems. --Tekkin58^{Talk to me here} 13:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verse articles, to all who are interested

It appears that Rich Farmbrough has created blank (redirected) articles for all the verses of Matthew. While this isn't problematic in itself (though it seems pointless), Rich has also started wikilinking to redirects (which I thought was to be avoided in the first place) as opposed to using one of the bibleverse templates. Because this issue has come up in the past, I am announcing it to those who are concerned either for or against these moves. I'd like to hear anyones imput on this matter. Thanks!--Andrew c 20:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

Hello Andrew. Work has been very busy, but I am passing through again. I hope you have been well. I feel the additions made at the end of July were input to make the conservative view look bad, without actually saying anything. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been an understanding of who exactly are the scholars or a meeting of all of them together giving them questionaires as to their views. What is missing, and should by all means be expounded upon if desired, is the why part. There is a section further below discussing other viewpoints. That would be a good place to expound.

The second section is out of place. The two-source hypothesis is discussed again only a couple of lines after the insertion. If expounding is called for, that would be the area. Bbagot 06:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll concede that the 2-source hypothesis sentence is redundent with the information covered in the next paragraph, but I think a sentence talking about modern critical scholarship should be included in the first paragraph. Here are some quotes:

"We do not know the author of Matthew's Gospel. That the original composition of the Matthew's Gospel was in Greek and that it depended upon earlier Greek gospel sources, makes it highly unlikely that Jesus' disciple Levi/Matthew wrote the Gospel which bears his name. However, the name Matthew may have been connected with the tradition of sayings and their written composition which the author used, i.e., with the Synoptic Sayings Source." Koester, Helmut. Ancient Christian Gospels, (1990).

"We do not know the name of [the Gospel of Matthew's] author: the title found in our English verions ("The Gospel according to Matthew") was added long after the document's original composition. It is true that according to an old tradition the author was none other than Matthew, the tax collector named in Matt 9:9. This tradition, however, arose some decades after the Gospel itself had been published, and scholars today have reasons to doubt its accuracy." Ehrman, Bart. The New Testament," (2004).

"Thus either Papias was wrong/confused in attributed a gospel (sayings) in Hebrew/Aramaic to Matthew, or he was right but the Hebrew/Aramaic composition he described was not the work we know in Greek as canonical Matt." Brown, Raymond. Introduction to the New Testament, (1997).

"The New Testament writers were not merely collectors of material. even though, apart from Paul, their true names are no longer known, they are all authors in the proper sence, with a message for a particular individual." ... "Modern critical scholarship has cast doubt on the traditional authorship of all the New Testament writings, with the exception of seven Pauline letters... All the other books may be either anonymous or pseudonymous." Brown, Schuyler. The origins of Christianity, (1993).

Accordingly, I will revise the deleted sentence and re-insert it. Hope this helps.--Andrew c 14:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've tried making some alterations. Although I don't agree the same information should basically be restated more than once within the same section, I've kept the original concept but in a form that comes across as less biting.Bbagot 01:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The more I look at different articles in wikipedia, the more I question why this article needs to quantify opinion when there are obviously large numbers of people who hold variations of different views on both sides. While such antagonistic phrases as "the vast majority" have been removed, how do we determine the majority opinion of "scholars"? It appears to be a rarity in Encylopedic articles to make a strong point over determining majority viewpoint. Bbagot 18:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with the recent changes. I modified the first paragraph of the Authorship section to be a little clearer.--Hurtstotalktoyou 18:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep he was the saint of the Gospel of Mark!!!!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.192.40.129 (talk • contribs) 17 September 2006.

[edit] Undue weight and Matthean priority

This was recently added:

Other notable for the historical primacy of Matthew on the basis of Matthew's lack of a significant baptismal pericope after the baptism of Jesus (cf Mark 10), the lack of Pauline language, an assumption that his readers are thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament, a lack of explicit awareness of any other Christian documents or preaching, and an emphasis on fulfillment in each of the five discourses that indicates the author sees his book as the cap on the Old Testament rather than as part of the corpus of a new body of Christian scriptures [ref]Scaer, David P. Discourses in Matthew. St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2004[/ref].

The problem is this is giving undue weight to Matthean priority. The majority of biblical scholars accept Markan priority. By padding the article with arguments supporting Matthean priority (even sourced arguments), we end up violating NPOV. Maybe, we could combine this content with the existing content? Maybe picking and choosing which points are most important, and making the whole section more concise. Therefore we can incorporate some of this cited information, without giving undue weight.--Andrew c 00:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd links

In the "Detailed Contents" section, some of the links lead to verses in Mark as oppossed to Matthew. Is there a reason for this? See "Beward of Yeast" for an example. Why does that link to Mark?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.52.196.164 (talk • contribs) 00:30, 15 November 2006.

Because, for example, there is no Beware of Yeast nor is there a Matthew 16, and there doesn't appear to be any real reason to create these pages, since the Markan parallel, Mark 8, already exists, which not only covers the passage in Mark but also the differences in Luke and Matthew. 75.0.10.218 08:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loaded terms

By removing the "loaded terms" conservative and liberal, we know have a case of weasel words. We have "some scholars say x, while others say y". Perhaps these terms are loaded, but the type of scholars need to be qualified somehow. Perhaps we could make it clear that the early dating is a minority view, and the later dating is the mainstream view?--Andrew c 05:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

They are not weasel words in this case I think. They are not trying to insert anything that is not explicit. In this case there are several opinions and they are presented in the article. Adding "liberal" and "conservative" loads the statements with uncited meaning. If we had a good cite for "liberal scholars as defined by X believe Y" and the same for conservative then that would be fine. As it is those terms appear to be solely your definition (I am not meaning to provoke by that statement either). --Rtrev 19:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)