Talk:Grammar school

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After graduation, the student attends college.

I've removed the above sentence. We don't "graduate" from school, for one thing... And we don't necessarily attend anything else afterwards. And if we do, there is a distinction between further education and higher education. I'm not entirely sure what the definitions are, but I think further education generally happens at some sort of college, while higher education happens at a university... Erm, I think someone else should clarify this... -- Oliver P. 14:35 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Further education is just education in addition to what you received at secondary school. It may be at the same level, at a higher level, or at a lower level than secondary education, anything from basic training to a Ph D. Higher education (also known as tertiary education) is education at a higher level than secondary education. In the UK it could be an HNC, an HND, a degree or higher. In the UK, colleges normally handle the types of further education which are not classed as higher education while universities, polytechnics and institutes of technology normally handle higher education (but there is often some overlap). -- Derek Ross 16:13 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Ah! Thanks for explaining that. It's a lot clearer now. I've nicked your text and put it at further education, by the way. :) -- Oliver P. 16:35 26 May 2003 (UTC)

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I've rephrased the deleted sentence. --Menchi 14:40 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. Well I went to university. And besides, where someone goes after leaving a grammar school is no different from where one goes after leaving any other sort of secondary school, so mentioning it at all may be misleading. The reader might be left with the impression that going on to further/higher education is something specifically relevant to grammar schools, when in fact it isn't. -- Oliver P. 14:47 26 May 2003 (UTC)

It parallels what's mentioned in high school:

American students are allowed to leave high school at age 16-18, depending on the state, or when they graduate or go on to college or other education.

It's not clear to many that the American g.s. is before high school, and the British before college. Let alone even knowing that the British one is a secondary school. This can clarify a great deal. --Menchi 15:13 26 May 2003 (UTC)

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Contents 1 eleven plus 2 private and public 3 generality 4 Comparison with European countries

[edit] eleven plus

Here's a question. Although I know there are some grammar schools left, is the exam still called "eleven plus"? I didn't think that terminology was still in use. Deb 15:44 26 May 2003 (UTC)

User:Boris the Inquisitive Goat changed "was" to "is", with the edit comment, "it still exists!" I think the exam is now a different one, and might have a different official name, but the old name has stuck in common usage... I think... -- Oliver P. 16:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I took the twelve plus...I can't find any reference to it anywhere. Must be quite rare. How special do I feel? :)

The 11+ is still widely used. I am invigilating one in a few weeks, but, as said in the article is is only used in some counties. N.B. the 12+ is an exam taken by those who join a grammar school in year 8 Englishnerd 19:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] private and public

Before going into detail, what you people should do is clarify a number of points for all the users who are not familiar with the term. Does "grammar school" in Britain mean the opposite of what it is in the United States? Is this just like "public school"? Did I get this right? --KF 15:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)

That's another good point. Grammar schools can be private schools or state schools, if I'm not mistaken. Deb 15:54 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I thought that grammar schools had to be state schools (i.e. not private schools), but to be honest I'm not sure. My school was a state school, but you can't generalise from a sample of one... -- Oliver P. 16:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)

To understand grammar schools in the UK, you need a bit of history. After WW2, the government reorganised the secondary schools into two basic types. Secondary moderns were intended for children who would be going into a trade and concentrated on the basics plus practical skills; grammar schools were intended for children who would be going on to higher education and concentrated on the classics, science, etc. This system lasted until the 1960s, at which point it was pointed out that it was a pretty discriminatory system which wasn't getting the most out of children. Partly because some authorities tended to prioritise their budgets on the grammar schools, damaging the education prospects of children attending secondary moderns.

The decision was taken to switch to a single type of school designed to give every child a complete education. That's why this new type of school is called a comprehensive school. However the timetable of the changeover was left to the local authorities, some of whom were very anti the whole idea and thus dragged their feet for as long as possible. The result is that there is now a mixture. Some authorities run a proper comprehensive system, others run secondary moderns and grammar schools (except that they've rebadged the secondary moderns as "comprehensives").

Most private schools provide the same type of education as a grammar school, but there are exceptions, Gordonstoun for one. In areas where the local authority provides a comprehensive education -- which some parents don't like for political, or status reasons -- private grammar schools are particularly common. -- Derek Ross

"For political or status reasons"? Hmm, I wonder what your point of view on this subject is. ;) You forgot the reason about them wanting their children to have a good education... -- Oliver P. 18:41 26 May 2003 (UTC)

No I didn't, that's what I meant by the political reason. We all want our children to attend a school which we think will give them a good education. Politics enters into whether we think that a grammar or a comprehensive is more likely to do that or whether it doesn't make a lot of difference. As for my POV, I have attended state school and private school and have sent one child to private school (grammar type) and two to (comprehensive) state schools. <grin>You tell me what my POV is.</grin> -- Derek Ross 22:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Might as well clarify what I mean by status reasons too. We all want our children to do well in later life. Increasing their status is just as likely to help them as providing them with a good education. And whether we personally think that people who have attended private or streamed education are better people than the average or not, we should all be aware that there are a lot of people who do think that, a lot who think it makes no difference, and only a few who think that it makes you a worse person. Therefore on average, attendance at grammar or private school is more likely to be a help than a hindrance in later life whatever the actual quality of the education at the particular school chosen. Giving their children that status increase is something that many people choose to do, whatever their personal beliefs. -- Derek Ross 00:28 27 May 2003 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for explaining. That makes sense. But you've confused me with your apparently inconsistent choices of schools for your children! But never mind; I'd better resist the urge to pry further into your motivations. :) I'll just try not to jump to conclusions about people's points of view in future... -- Oliver P. 11:22 27 May 2003 (UTC)

  In actual fact I think you will find most Grammar schools are privately funded, for example mine is a foundation school which means it receives government grants but no fees are paid and it is not controlled by the state, so it depends on what is mant by 'private'

   K.E Aston Grammar school for boys

[edit] generality

this seems to be a very general article. any ideas for a section on Britain, america etc?? it provides no perspective of different countries. I would add the area I come from, but it would be a bit random without other areas in the world. at any rate, grammar school pupil selection, funding etc. is hardly the same throughout the world. any ideas for a section on Britain, america etc?? ♪♫ MαRΤiαΠ_Ŀostiη^SPΛĊΞImage:Untitled-1 copy.gif 21:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

There is, infact, a whole other page on grammer schools in the UK. Should this be a seperate article, or a section within Grammar school? Englishnerd 17:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It makes sense to reference it anyway (done) Mucky Duck 22:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with European countries

I wondered if Englishnerd could elaborate here on what he means by the similarity to "European tiered schools". As I understand it in 1944 there were quite different systems in different European countries. Does this phrase add anything to the explanation about grammar schools? Itsmejudith 08:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I meant it as a point of reference, as in Europe, esp. Germany pupils will go to different (Gymnasium, Realschule, usw.) schools depending on their academic level and the centre of their knowledge. This is similar to the system which was set up in England. Englishnerd 19:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I see, but it was not the same all over Europe. I know about France best and while France had many kinds of schools there was no concept of "secondary schools of different types", because only the "lycees" were classified as secondary schools. So your addition could be confusing for anyone who doesn't know the German system but does know other European systems. I have got some books on the history of education which may clarify the conceptual origins of the 1944 tripartite system. However, I'm not sure that this is the best article for this anyway, since there is also Grammar schools in the United Kingdom. Itsmejudith 21:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)