User talk:Gramaic

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I as a user of Wikipedia think, there should be a "History of the Mediterannean," that describes the whole Mediterannean region of Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.

[edit] Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Gramaic, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Alai 22:30, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! If you like the idea of an article about the history of the Mediterannean area then why not start it and invite others to join you? George 22:48, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History of the Mediterannean

Taking George's advise, I've started a new article called History of the Mediterannean. If anybody is interested in this new article I have started, please feel free to check that page out. If anybody wants to edit or add to that page, please go ahead. Mediterannean history is very important.--Gramaic 03:44, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Update: I have discovered that there already is an article on Mediterranean History, and the article is History of the Mediterranean region. The article I have created now relocates to this existing Mediterranean History article.---Gramaic 07:50, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pan Aryanism

What's with the blanking and recreation of this article? Having a hard time making up your mind? I almost tagged your article for speedy deletion because it was empty. Need help? Rl 19:39, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is very confusing. If you want it deleted, please be clear about what's going on: blank but with a history is not acceptable. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:01, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, I forgot to comment in the summary. I've been thinking that we don't need an article about Pan Aryanism, the information I wrote about Pan Aryanism in the White supremacy article is more than enough. So please, delete the Pan Aryanism article, and again sorry for the confusion.--Gramaic 01:22, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No problem. I have turned it into a redirect. If you want it deleted, you can tag it as speedy (db|The sole author reckons it's covered elsewhere or something). Rl 06:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Rl. I think it's a very wonderful idea that you made Pan Aryanism a redirect to White supremacy.--Gramaic 07:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Syria, Lebanon and Beirut

I realize you didn't ask me...but the name Syria is from the name of the city called Tyre in English, S.ur in Arabic, Tyrus in Greek, Tzor in Hebrew, which was apparently Tzur in Phoenician, and meant "rock". The historical name for the area that now comprises the modern nation-state of Syria is actually Aram (whence the language of its inhabitants before the muslim invasion, Aramic) (Far northern modern Syria was formerly Ashur, viz. Assyria, from the Greek name, which was modelled by analogy with Syria). So anyways, technically, Syria is "Phoenicia", although the current nation-state has nothing to do with the ancient Phoenicians, and indeed covers very little of the are of ancient Phoenicia, and a lot of area that was well beyond the influence of the Phoenicians. Lebanon is from the Hebrew word for white, "Labhan", whence the name of the perpetually snow-covered mountain in Hebrew, Levanon. Berut is an ancient Phoenician city, and if I recall correctly, its name means "Cypress" (a kind of tree). Tomer ^TALK 02:47, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Phoenicia

I didn't think you meant to put me in the wrong, but in general when altering a previous comment that has already been responded to it is much better to strike through it ~~(like this)~~ than simply to alter it invisibly. It makes it much clearer what is going on. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:28, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christian emigration

I have created a new article that is called Christian emigration. It focuses on Christian migration that is mainly from the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent and the Far East (Far Eastern countries such as China). So if anybody wants to visit that article, or add more useful information to it, be my guest.--Gramaic 01:00, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Famous White supremacists

When I first saw White_supremacy#Famous_White_supremacists I worried, fearing the potential POV such a list represents. But then I started checking out the entries and in each case I had to agree with its inclusion. I reluctantly agree to the merit of having such a list, but I enthusiastically applaud your care in assembling it. Good work. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:27, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Willmcw. Just doing my best in contributing to the articles here at Wikipedia. :-) --Gramaic 00:29, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] White Supremacy

I added Miller and Lindstedt because they are (or were in the case of Lindstedt, who is currently in jail during his trial) quite active on the net.

IIRC Alex Linder isn't on the list. Somebody, perhaps me if my laziness goes away, should add him, since he runs Vanguard News Network last I checked, or at least the forum.

And it is true, they hate each other. Lindstedt and Miller especially, it sort of felt unfair to have one and not the other, so I did both. I think Lindstedt once challenged Miller to a fistfight in front of a Wal-Mart. It might have been the other way around.

[edit] The Phora

I honestly think the Phora doesn't count as a white supremacist site. Chuck it in with the white nationalists, or call it "neutral". If a bunch of anti-racists wanted to show up, and didn't just generally behave in an abusive fashion, they would be allowed to post there, I believe.

--Edward Wakelin 02:33, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Animated GIF

Do you really need an animated GIF in your signature? I find it very distracting: it makes it hard to focus to read surrounding text. It seems to me to introduce the opposite of accessibility: I know from studies on web design that it will make it very hard for anyone with even mild ADD or dyslexia to read that portion of the page. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:29, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for killing that. BTW, non-animated images do not present a comparable problem (though, in a context like this it's hard to make a case that they add value). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:26, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for removing the animated gif. I appreciate the enthusiasm though! Cheers, -Willmcw 04:27, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't know that the animated gif brings problems. Had I known that the graphic emoticons were a problem, I wouldn't even think about putting them up.--Gramaic 28 June 2005 04:15 (UTC)

Not to worry. No harm done. Cheers, -Willmcw June 28, 2005 04:25 (UTC)

[edit] Whites

Hi Poli. I've noticed that you've inserted an image of Mariska Hargitay into this article. Don't you think you're being a little too bold, because everybody knows what a white person looks like. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 07:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello Gramaic. To tell you the truth I just got by that article and I thought it could benefit aesthetically from an image. I had no intention of being that bold about the characteristics of a white person, but now that you named it, I think you are right. I just need to think about something better to improve the article. Thanks, Poli (talk • contribs) 08:08, 2005 July 11 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalist Movement

I'm still getting up to speed on this group. Your participation in this and related articles would improve them, I'm sure. My initial 'take ' is that it is a one-man show, and that the one man (or a close associate) is trying to get additional attention for the group with vanity articles. Anyway, thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -Willmcw 11:19, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Will. I'll see what I can do with that article, I've just put it in my watchlist. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:52, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] list of white supremacists

Gramaic, I've added a few obvious folks to the list (Jefferson Davis, Hitler). However, I'm still not sure a list of famous white supremacists is a great idea. White supremacy was pretty much the status quo assumption in the Western world from the 1600s to the mid-1900s, at least. Most any white person of note during that period could probably be described as a white supremacist (with a few notable exceptions, like John Brown and Eleanor Roosevelt). Any list by its nature is almost certainly going to both minimize the extent of the philosophy's sway and single out certain people unfairly and almost at random -- I mean, I've put Thomas Jefferson here simply because I've seen evidence that he was a white supremacist, but I'm pretty darn sure that virtually all the founding fathers were. I dunno -- you've creaed it now, and I'm not going to put it on Vfd or anything -- just thought you might want to think about whether this is really such a good idea..... (I've posted this message to both the white supremacist talk and list of white supremacist talk pages as well, which is probably more exposure than my prose really requires, but there you go....) NoahB 12:48, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

So, do you think it would be best if I put this article up for VfD? Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 07:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The term "white supremacist" has always bristled. Most people on the list would not, I guess, object to being called "white nationalists" or "white separatists". It is a small difference but one of great degree to some. And it really isn't limited to just those who, from Jefferson to Lincoln to (Mrs) Roosevelt, may have felt that western European or Anglo-Saxon culture was superior to others. Such a list would be too long to be of use. It'd be much better to list those who weren't. This article is (or should be) a list of those who sought to enforce or extend perceived differences between the races. While Jefferson, Lincoln and Roosevelt may have personally expressed supremacist leanings, they did not express primarily separatist views (Yes, Lincoln talked about repatriation to Africa, but did not pursue it.) For those reasons a "list of white nationalists (separatists)" may be a better, more focused article with most of the same names. - Willmcw 10:10, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The "Lists" category

Please do not place any articles in Category:Lists. All articles should be placed in one of the sub categories. Thanks so much! -- Reinyday, 10 August 2005

You asked Why do the articles need to be put in sub categories?

The "Lists" category, like all categories, exists to help people find what they want. There are thousands of lists, so having them all in one category doesn't help people navigate. By separating them, people can find what they want, like Lists of people or Nature lists. Cheers. -- Reinyday, 11 August 2005

[edit] Hello Gramaic

Gramaic, I see that you have changed my introduction to "White" on the ==White people== page. I suppose that I can accept your definition as a standard U.S. government definition, but this is NOT the definition held by the American general public. If one calls himself an Arab, that almost invariably excludes him from being white. In fact, most Arabs I know don't like to be called white. They prefer the blanket term of Arab and/or Middle Eastern, in the same way that in America, white is a blanket term for Europeans. Also, Persians and Turks obviously like to be differentiated from Arabs, but still accept Middle-Eastern. In fact, Arabs and Persians are pushing the U.S. census bureau to add a 'Middle-Eastern' race category to future censuses. Your thoughts?...user: Antonucc

Hi there, Antonucc. Actually Arabs, Turks and Persians in the United States prefer to be called White. Yes, there are Middle Easterners in the U.S. that refer to themselves as non-White, but only a minority view themselves as such. For example, in the United States many Italians say that they and all other Italians and Southern Europeans are non-White, but does that mean Italians, Greeks and Southern Europeans are non-White. About the Arabs and Persians trying to make the U.S. census put a Middle Eastern race category to future censuses, it's only a small group of people who are trying to make such a measure. So, Arabs, Turks, Persians and even Hebrews in the U.S. consider themselves just as White as the Germans, English, Irish, Italians, Slavs, etc. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 19:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alex Linder

Regarding Alex Linder, he's one of the people formerly associated with Bill White (activist). Such people have been the particular targets of bad edits. So when an editor, possibly Linder himself, says "deleted subjective slurs which strongly deviate from NPOV, and deleted unsubstantiated gossip", it is quite possible that he is correct. White inserted slurs and gossip in many articles and I'm not sure that we got it all cleaned out. He edited as Baxter2 and as an anon before that. There are plenty of bad things that can be said about Linder, but we should only have the real ones. If you have a chance can you review that recent edit [1] and check to see if any of it looks like gossip or uncalled-for slurs? Thanks, -Willmcw 10:20, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expediency

(This is just a thought, not a campaign.) I've always considered the distinctions between White-supremacists/separatists/nationalists to be discernible yet relatively insignificant. However, such distinctions are important to the people who hold those views. I'm inclined to think that moving "nordish.net" from the "White supremacist" article to the "White nationalist" article might settle things down and bring Wikipeace. I see that there's a nice set of similar links already lined up in the "nationalist" article. Why not add it over there? It seems silly to keep restoring the link time and again in "supremacist" if a slightly different designation will make everyone happy-ish. Cheers, -Willmcw 10:27, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think we should add "nordish.net" to the White nationalism article. But, by removing it permenantly from the White supremacy article, I'm a little worried that this will give other anonymous editors from these kinds of websites the idea that if they keep deleting certain links from the article, they will succeed. Yes we should add "The Nordish Portal" to the the WN article, but I don't think it will be good in our part if we removed them from the WS article. Anyway, do what you think is right for the article. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I see your point. Let's do it that way. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:39, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

See you around at Mt. Sac. T-1000 20:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jimbo Wales to Attend San Diego Meetup on October 18 2005

Hello, Jimbo Wales will be in San Diego to attend OOPSLA and has agreed to come by and visit with the San Diego wikipedians. If you are interested, you will find more info on my talk page. Johntex\^talk 00:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mootstormfront

I may be mitaken but I think it may be back up now. Btw, are you/were you registered on there? XYaAsehShalomX 15:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello XYaAsehShalomX. I just checked the site, and it is still unavailable. Unfortunately, I have never registered at Mootstormfront, but I do hope to register there pretty soon. :) Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 03:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Damour

Just checked the new Damour page and I think you handled it just right. The article should be there but it should include information on the town and only brief mention of the massacre. I say leave it as you have it and we'll hope somebody fills in more general info on the town itself. Regards, Babajobu 22:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right. In that case we'll do it that way. Thanks, --Gramaic | Talk 23:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Gabriel

Hi Gramiac, this was just an anon reviewer on Amazon, so we can't use it in the article, but if you're interested, you can find it here. If you scroll down, it's the review from Jeremy Block, and it says: "Now the bad news: This book is written in a horrible, inarticulate form. He writes as if he is a 10 year old student, with the most unenlightening thoughs [sic] and descriptions. It may be one of the worst books I ever read in this regard. For those wanting an insider account of how Muslims may think of Jews from someone who is from an Arab/Muslim country, it doesnt get any better than this. However, make sure you have the patience and sense of humor to sit through this guys style of writing, because it is quite bad." Note that I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this. Haven't read it, so I've no idea. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate it. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 02:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Syria, History of Syria, Syrian occupation of Lebanon

Hey Gramaic. I know you are a contributor to Syria-related topics so I thought you would be interested in what's happening on these articles. A certain right-wing anti-Syrian has been making highly POV edits about how Syrian workers "colonized" Lebanon. If you could revert his edits it would be appreciated. Yuber^(talk) 00:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Yuber, long time no see. :) I've just put Syrian occupation of Lebanon in my watchlist, and as you can see I've just created the "Compare" sub-section in that article, which is just below the "See also" section. As I said in my summary, "hoopefully this will end the edit war." When I have more time, I will look into those articles more. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 03:16, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Did you know?

Paul Vogel (talk • contribs). -Willmcw 08:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I had no idea. I'm hardly familiar with this user. So the person we've been having this dispute with for quite a while is actually Paul Vogel himself? --Gramaic | Talk 09:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It almost certainly is - I don't know why I didn't think of it to begin with. Persistent reverting and a reverence for Pierce are trademarks of his. I can't imagine that there are many other people who care so much about cosmotheism. There's not much we can do since he uses dynamic IPs except revert freely and vprotect when necessary. He's been quiet for a while, but I see someone else spotted him in November. Yep, he's one of Wikipedia's legendary contributors. -Willmcw 10:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, it looks like I spoke too soon. I'd asked an expert, user:Mirv about it and he recently responded that he didn't think this guy is Vogel. Too erudite, apparently. Oh well, you'll get your chance I'm sure. BTW, have you seen User:Silsor/Neo-nazi watchlist? Cheers, -Willmcw 08:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, so it's not him afterall. Anyway, we should still keep on eye on Vogel and others like him. About User:Silsor/Neo-nazi watchlist, I've actually edited that page a few times, most recently adding Caucasoid and Mootstormfront to that list. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 09:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Labels

Thanks for the welcome message! I have a dumb sounding queston but I haven't found the code to remove labels. I don't want to fix any thing and leave these up, and I can only find code to construct them in the first place. Can you help me? Veritas Liberum 23:21, 8 December 2005 (GMT)

Your very welcome! :) By labels, are you referring to the edit summaries? If you are, as far as I know, edit summaries can't be edited, changed or removed. --Gramaic | Talk 08:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Of interest

Hey Gramaic, from the previous discussions we had on the definitions of White (particularly the exlusion of Arabs outside the American context), I though you may find it interesting to know of recent events in Australia. As you probably have gathered, Arabs in Australia (the Lebanese to be specific, since they are the most numerous) are not White in popular or goverment definitions (unlike Italians or Greek which aren't white by the popular definition, they are wogs, but are white by the goverment definition).

Due to escalating ethnic violence in Australia, now would be a good time to review the press here to get an insight on race relations in Australia (particularly Whiteness). In the past week there has been an increase of violent attacks and hostitlity between white Australian and Arab Australians. As a result of the understanding of racial defenition here, "Racial tensions errupting" is a common title of most media here.

Here's an article of the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday which gives insight also on the popular Australian usages of both white and wog. By the way, in the article you will notice "Lebs and wogs" mentioned seperately, this is because Arabs here are de facto wogs, because technically the definition of "wog" also excludes Arabs (originally in Australia wogs were non-Whites from Europe only. Many wog purists still accept only this definition, rejecting the inclusion of Arabs and other Near Easterners).

A Sydney mayor says he understands the sentiments behind a text message call for vigilante behaviour at one of his shire's beaches.

But Sutherland Shire mayor Kevin Schreiber has called for calm and says violence is not the answer.

A major police operation has started around Cronulla Beach after two violent incidents in the past week, including an attack on two lifeguards on Sunday.

Yesterday, a brawl erupted at the beach when a gang of youths allegedly turned on a media crew.

As a result, email messages have been reported calling for vigilante action.

One message circulating in the shire urges "Aussies" [white Australians] to take revenge against "Lebs and wogs".

"Bring your mates and let's show them that this is our beach and they are never welcome," the message says.

Today, Mr Schreiber called for NSW Premier Morris Iemma to meet with the local community in an effort to solve the problems.

"I can understand the sentiments and can see what some of the people in the shire are trying to achieve, but this energy needs to be redirected into a collective voice of the people not into a gang of outlaws," Mr Schreiber said in a statement.

"We need the NSW premier to lead high level community discussions that can bring about a peaceful solution.

"And this is how angry shire residents can respond - by voicing their concerns so the politicians take action."

Mr Schreiber said locals should allow police to continue the job of investigating the recent violent incidents.

He said they should not take the law into their own hands.

"We hold grave concerns that further outbreaks of violence could erupt whilst this text message is in circulation," Mr Schreiber said.

He said the beach hosted children's activities on Sunday and any violent behaviour could endanger "thousands of innocent children and beachgoers".

Mr Iemma promised the "thugs" and "morons" responsible for recent violence will be brought to justice.

He said violence at the beach would not be tolerated and said locals must let police do their job.

"Place the trust in the police; they made some arrests, they had success, they made a breakthrough," Mr Iemma said.

"Let the police finish the job and bring those thugs, those morons, to justice, but don't you take the law into your own hands."

Stephen Leahy, rescue services manager for Surf Life Saving Sydney, said one message forwarded to him had urged vigilante style attacks.

"It really is quite a strong message, encouraging Australian men to go to the beach on Sunday to act as vigilantes. It's nothing short of that," he told ABC Radio.

"I'm led to believe there's a similar message sent to the Middle Eastern community to make sure that they're protected as well, through just force by numbers."

Despite the recent violence, Mr Leahy said a weekend surf carnival, expected to attract 1000 nippers and their families, would go ahead.

But he said extra precautions had been taken in case the situation erupted into violence.

Mr Leahy said members of the Middle Eastern community had previously discussed fears that lifesavers might not rescue them if they got into trouble.

"I'm more than happy to reassure anyone, irrespective of who you are, what colour you are, what creed or race or religion you are, is that if you're in trouble ... you will be looked after," he said.

The Liberal state Member for Cronulla Malcolm Kerr also appealed to people to ignore the text message urging people to rally on Sunday.

"We don't want to see that happening," Mr Kerr told ABC Radio.

Police yesterday charged an 18-year-old man over the weekend attack on the two lifesavers.

A 20-year-old man was also charged with malicious damage after a press photographer alleged he had his equipment damaged in the beach brawl yesterday.

A Sydney mayor says he understands the sentiments behind a text message call for vigilante behaviour at one of his shire's beaches.

But Sutherland Shire mayor Kevin Schreiber has called for calm and says violence is not the answer.

A major police operation has started around Cronulla Beach after two violent incidents in the past week, including an attack on two lifeguards on Sunday.

Yesterday, a brawl erupted at the beach when a gang of youths allegedly turned on a media crew.

As a result, email messages have been reported calling for vigilante action.

One message circulating in the shire urges "Aussies" to take revenge against "Lebs and wogs".