Talk:Greek cuisine

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Contents 1 Byzantine and Greek Cuisine 2 Relationship of gyros and doner kebab 3 Relationship of Byzantine and modern cooking 4 Opening Sentence 5 Duplicate entry on "Gemista" or "Yemista" 6 Spanakopita/Spanakotyropita 7 Removed Quote 8 Sources

[edit] Byzantine and Greek Cuisine

In case someone wants to write about the historic aspectes and/or the genesis of greek cuisine for the article.

Some Infos: * [1], * [2]

What about Keftedakia ? - User:BalthCat 2006-02-28

[edit] Relationship of gyros and doner kebab

Two recent edits have comments about gyros reading:

• [3] how about doner kebab deriving from it?
• [4] doner is different meat, halal, never pork - gyros comes from "souvla", a Latin word in its origin

I find them both mystifying. I have never seen the claim that doner kebab derives from gyros, and it is implausible on its face. The older name in Greek for what is now called gyros is 'döner', which is clearly a Turkish word (a participle derived from dönmek, to turn).

As for the second, I don't see what the etymology of 'souvla' has to do with the gyros. And I don't see what being halal has to do with the origin of the dish. Obviously in a Muslim context a meat dish would not be made with pork. But gyros is made with various meats (the best, in my opinion, with lamb). --Macrakis 23:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The first edit summary was a sarcasm which means that we cannot not know which derives from what. I never claimed that Doner comes from Gyros, I hope you're reading my edits before you change them. The Turkish cuisine has as many influences from the Greek as the Greek does from the Turkish (if not more). Secondly, the origin of the word souvla/souvlakion is Latin, which means that this method of meat-cooking has pre-existed the Turkic appearence to Asia Minor. Thirdly and most importantly, the Doner is NOT the same as gyros, for the simple reason that it's a different type of meat (halal and never pork). It's naive to say that gyros is the Greek name of Doner just because they look alike, or just because in your own mind Greek cuisine has by default Turkish influences. Miskin 00:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

1) As for what derives from what, it seems pretty clear that gyros and shwarma derive from doner kebab, and unlikely that doner kebab and shwarma derive from gyros. Please refer to the various sources cited in the doner kebab article. Turkish cuisine and Greek cuisine obviously have a lot in common, some of it specifically Turkish in origin, some of it specifically Greek in origin, much of it neither specifically Greek or Turkish, and some of it indirectly derived from Persian cuisine, as can be seen by the names of the dishes (cf. kefte, kima, etc.), but that is neither here nor there. We are speaking specifically of doner kebab/gyros.

2) No one claims that spit-roasting (souvla 'spit') was introduced by the Turks. Obviously roasting meat on a spit is a long-standing tradition in many parts of the world, so the etymology of the word 'souvla' has nothing to do with the origins of gyros. Calling gyros served in pita bread 'souvlaki' (i.e. 'little spit' = 'skewer') is a recent phenomenon, referring to the similarity of the serving style between gyros in pita and souvlaki (meat on a skewer) in pita. When the same preparations are served on a dish instead of a sandwich, they are not called by the same name.

3) Both gyros and doner kebab are made of various kinds of meat, typically including lamb, beef/veal, chicken, and pork (in non-Muslim contexts). Gyros is most commonly made of pork; doner is most commonly made of lamb/mutton. The basic preparation, however, is essentially the same. And as for the origin of the dish, which was the question being discussed, I don't see how the substitution of the meat changes the origin. The text did not read "gyros is identical to doner kebab" but "gyros is derived from doner kebab".

Finally, I would appreciate it if you would cut down on the aggressive ad hominem remarks like "it is naive to say" and "just because in your own mind". These are uncivil and unconstructive, and don't help us resolve the substantive issue. --Macrakis 17:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right, I'll trust the sources from "turkishcook.com". Anyway I'll reply only to the gyros-doner issue and avoid the babbling. If "souvla" spin-cooking is common throughout the world, and if gyros is exclusively pork/chiken while doner is exclusively lamb/mutton (as you recently discovered), and if doner is never pork and yet always Halal (look that one up too), then can you please ellaborate on how "The basic preparation, however, is essentially the same", because frankly I can't make any sense out of it. Oh I know, they both use the rare ceremonial procedure of "cooking the meat". Miskin 17:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Then again Gyros and Doner in the United States, Germany or France is essentially the same thing. So you probably do have a reason for getting confused. Miskin 17:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be maintaining that gyros is simply "souvla spin-cooking". But it is much more specific than that. Gyros/doner/shwarma are sliced (sometimes mixed with ground/minced meat, sometimes only ground meat) meat stacked (typically with fat on top) on a turning vertical spit and sliced off to order. From a culinary point of view, there are three distinctive things about this process: 1) it cross-cuts the meat (first when it is stacked, then when it is sliced off), thus reducing the stringiness/toughness; 2) the fat drips down from the top, basting the meat; 3) it gives every customer a lot of crust. All this is very different from spit-cooking in general, which is pieces of whole meat (not slices) cooked on horizontal spits and not sliced off to order, but removed whole. It is also different from skewer cooking like souvlaki, shish kebab, satay, brochette, yakitori, etc. where small chunks of meat (and sometimes other ingredients) are put onto small individual skewers which are normally individual servings, and not turned continuously.

As for the meat that is used for gyros/doner, you are mistaken that doner is exclusively lamb/mutton. It can also be veal/beef or chicken. Gyros can also be lamb/mutton. There is a large overlap. I don't know why you make such a big deal of halal. Of course, cooks in Muslim areas will use halal meat, cooks in Jewish areas will use kosher meat, etc. Is a roast beef made with halal or kosher beef suddenly not roast beef any more? I really don't get why you're insisting on the halal issue. --Macrakis 18:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

PS Your sarcasm ("rare ceremonial procedure") and condescension ("as you recently discovered") is getting really tiresome. I believe I have remained civil throughout this discussion. I ask that you do the same. --Macrakis 23:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

On the question of, how turkish is "grilled meat", one should take into consideration that grilled meat is mentioned many times in the works of Homer (no, not Homer Simpson), and the term Obolus (means a long thin metal rod, such as a spit - actually for the purpose of grilling meat) goes way back into history. -- 62.178.137.216 16:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Please read the full discussion above. Gyros is not any old spit-roasted meat; it is a very specific preparation. No one is claiming that spit-roasted meat is specifically Turkish. I suspect it is far older than Homer, for that matter. --Macrakis 23:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I ve read carefully the previous interventions and i would like to make the following remarks:

a)I agree that spit-roasted meat is quite a simple cooking method and so, it is reasonable to suppose that it was not the invention of a particular ppl.

b)Regarding the distinction between gyros and doner, according to the greek cuisine article gyros is "meat roasted on a vertically turning spit". according to the article on doner kebab, doner kebab is "rotating roast meat". i do not see the difference.

c)to state that gyros and donner kebab are different because turks do not eat pork is, at least in my opinion, misleading. White wine and red wine are both wine although they are made of different types of grapes.

d)given the above statements, i think it might be useful to merge the doner kebab/gyros articles. According to the article on merging, merging should take place when : "There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there doesn't need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability." best--Greece666 01:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship of Byzantine and modern cooking

A recent edit added to the introduction "Its base is Byzantine Cuisine,..." and removed "Due to the strong Ottoman presence, many Greek dishes are closely related to Ottoman/Turkish dishes." There are clearly some dishes that can be traced back to ancient Greece (e.g. trahanas, skordalia, lentil soup, retsina, pasteli) and some specifically to Byzantium (feta cheese, avgotaraho, paximadi). There are also many ancient and Byzantine preparations which are no longer consumed: porridge as the main staple, fish sauce, salt water mixed into wine, etc. On the other hand, there are also many dishes from the Ottoman/Persian/Arab tradition, and with clearly non-Greek names: moussaka, baklava, tzatziki, yuvarlakia, yoghurt, keftedhes, .... Of course, the name isn't a foolproof indication of the history of a dish; the ancients apparently made something very similar to dolma, and probably to some kinds of boureki. Very few dishes come from Italian cooking: pastitsio, makaronia me kima, ...

It would be good to provide a balanced introduction to all this. --Macrakis 22:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Feta cheese can also be traced to antiquity according to some sources. The dishes from the Ottoman/Persian/Arab tradition have reached the Greeks mainly via the Ottomans (and possibly earlier), and this is already implied in the "middle eastern influence" part. I removed what was the result of anon POV-pushing. Yoghurt specifically comes from the Bulgars and not the Ottomans, so it can be considered a Byzantine element too. I recently realised that the article is poor. Besides the head, there's no much information there. Miskin 23:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have a good earlier source for feta, please add it to the history section of the feta article; the earliest I could find was Dalby's 1494. I have seen others claim that feta is ancient based only on the fact that cheese in general is ancient, which of course doesn't help.

What exactly did you have in mind by "its base is Byzantine cuisine"? How can that be made precise and verifiable?

Removing the Ottomans from the article strikes me as overreacting to what may or may not have been "anon POV-pushing". As you say yourself, their influence was huge. Unfortunately, the Ottoman cuisine article is terrible.

As for yoghurt, yes, it was probably introduced to the region by the Bulgars before the Ottoman period. Does that make it "Byzantine"? --Macrakis 13:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Egon Friedell claimed that Feta was eaten by ancient Spartans, but I don't know where he got that from. My reaction is not overreacting, it's the result of anon long-term pov-pushing. There was definitely an important Ottoman influence, but we cannot know at what degree it represents the general middle-eastern element in Greek cuisine. This doesn't have to do with the fact that Ottoman cuisine assimilated much of its cuisine from the middle east, but with the fact that Byzantium has always had oriental influences in its cuisine even before the Ottoman domination. In other terms we could specify that Italian and middle-easter influences come via the Venetians and the Ottomans respectively, but I'm not sure how accurrate it is. Why would you not agree that the base of Greek cuisine is the Byzantine? What else could it be? I'm not aware of any trends of ancient Greek cuisine that were not transmitted through Byzantium. Miskin 21:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be interesting to learn where Friedell got his information. As for the connection of ancient and modern Greek cuisine, it doesn't seem that close to me (how many people do you see eating porridge as a staple these days...?). I'd be happy to have better sources about the transmission of Persian cuisine to the West and the East (the Gk. καβουρ-δίζω and Tk. kavur-mak appear to be from the same Persian (Mughal/Mongol?) word as the Indian dish korma). And about the sources of Persian cuisine and food terminology, for that matter. But alas John Perry[5] says: "so far as I know, there's no comprehensive etymological study of the cuisine of Persia and its neighbors and debtors" (private communication). --Macrakis 03:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

So what would you suggest to use as the base of Greek cuisine? In my opinion Byzantine cuisine passed down the majority of both ancient Greek and Oriental elements that modern Greek cuisine currently possesses. I don't know much about Roman cuisine, but I doubt that it was as an important root of Byzantine cuisine as the article claims. Miskin 15:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest not saying anything about the "(historical) base of Greek cuisine" until we have some solid, citable sources. Unfortunately, they are hard to find. For every cuisine (certainly not just Greek), it seems that legends and nonsense get invented and passed down in cookbooks etc. (See croissant, chop suey, etc.). --Macrakis 16:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I still think that it's more accurrate than claiming "with strong influences from the Byzantine Cuisine as well as Italy, the Middle East", which implies 1/3 contribution of each. That's not the case. Late Byzantines were practically early modern Greeks, the language has remained fairly intact, I don't see how the cuisine can have changed that much. Miskin 16:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't support the "1/3" wording. For one thing, the Italian contribution is relatively small as far as I can tell. Until we have stronger historical evidence, I think it is more correct to say that Greek cuisine has many commonalities (note that this avoids the question of origin) with Ottoman/Turkish cuisine. "Middle Eastern" (as I think you've pointed out before) is less accurate than "Ottoman", after all, it has many fewer commonalities with Lebanese/Syrian cuisine (no kibbeh, no hummus bi tahini, no fattoush, no tabbouleh, etc.). Some specific dishes can be traced further: cf. Baklava (but also cf. the ridiculous POV-pushing at Assyrian cuisine). --Macrakis 16:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the usage of the term "commonalities". It is impossible to know for a fact who is "debted" to whom. Sometimes history helps, for example we know that Byzantium and Europe acquired yogurt from the Bulgar Turks, and that the Ottoman Turks adapted olive oil from the Greeks. As far as the oriental element in Greek cuisine is concerned, we cannot know where is the origin of what, since Byzantium used to be a relatively "oriental" civilisation itself. I agree that Middle Eastern cuisine is a very wide term, I think the best word would be "Oriental". Miskin 17:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The term 'oriental cuisine', which you might think was a good translation for ανατολίτικη κουζίνα, is in English nowadays pretty much reserved for East Asia (and not much for that, either); the older usage, like "Near East" and "The Levant", is basically obsolete. Levantine cuisine refers to the cooking of the Bilad al-Sham (Greater Syria), and specifically not to Turkish cuisine. "Anatolian cuisine" is not a standard term, and anyway sounds like it's talking specifically of rustic food. And I still don't think the 'Byzantine base' is useful to talk about. --Macrakis 18:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Sentence

"Greek cuisine is the cuisine of Greece or perhaps of the Greeks."

This needs to be rewritten. No offense to anyone involved, but that's a terrible way to start an article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.142.61.13 (talk • contribs).

Greeks are traditionally a diaspora people, Greek cuisine is not restricted to the borders of the Greek state, and it does not originate exclusively in Greece. Miskin 17:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I sort of agree with both of you. Clearly Greek cuisine is not just the cuisine of the state of Greece, but the way the article is currently worded is confusing if you don't already know what it means. The "perhaps" is an especially odd way of saying it. I must confess to not having a good replacement on the tip of my tongue, though. --Delirium 21:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate entry on "Gemista" or "Yemista"

Gemista -the 5th entry in famous greek dishes- and Yemista -the last- both refer to the same dish. One of them should be deleted. Preferably the "Gemista". GiorgosV 18:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone also wikilinked yemista to dolma, which I removed. There are similarities between the dishes, but they're hardly the same. --Delirium 21:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the dolma article, I think you will find it describes yemista, which after all means the same thing (just like the Arabic mahshi). Of course, stuffed vegetables are not the same thing as things wrapped in grape leaves (Greek dolmathakia, Turkish sarma). --Macrakis 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, odd. In English usage at least, I've never heard the word "dolma" used to describe stuffed vegetables, only the grape-leaf wraps. If you go to a Mediterranean restaurant anywhere in the U.S. (whether Greek or Turkish or Lebanese) that's the usage they use. --Delirium 21:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The Greek cuisine article doesn't use the word 'dolma' to refer to stuffed vegetables, but just wikilinks to dolma using the link text yemista. As for the name in English, the heading 'dolma' in the Oxford Companion to Food does talk about the stuffed vegetable kind, while mentioning the sarma kind as well. --Macrakis 22:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanakopita/Spanakotyropita

In my experience (and I'm of Greek ancestry), these are two names for the same thing. I've never known a "Spanakopita" not to contain cheese (though I've no objection to it's being tried). "Spanakotyropita" is the more accurate name, though, as it might be thought a trifle cumbersome, "Spanakopita" is by far the more commonly used.

Kostaki mou 03:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Quote

There is no need for this long quote in the beginning on the relationship between Greek and Turkish food. Many of the origins of foods are uncertain, so it quite unfair to call this time of lifestyle "Ottoman" where the Ottoman Empire drew heavily from the Byzantine. There is absolutely no need for the beginning of this page to consist of a long quote on the relationship between Greek and Turkish food. Maybe there could a subsection, or a seperate page on Greco-Turkish culinary links, but the introduction should not be dominated by this. -AlexiusComnenus

Reviewing the talk, a seperate subsection on the influences on Greek cuisine might be nice. The article can discuss the Ancient, Byzantine, Slavic, Arab, Italian, Turkish and growing American influences on Greek cuisine. -Alexius Comnenus

If you have good sources for other influences on Greek cuisine by reputable scholars, please add them. There are certainly some basic foods -- like olive oil, wine, lentils, fish, lamb, and so on -- which persist from ancient to modern times. But if you read the literature (including Fragner, Dalby, and others), I think you will find that though there are certainly some elements of ancient and Byzantine cooking in modern Greek cuisine, there are also huge differences, just as in the West, starting with the staples (we no longer eat porridge) to the high cuisine. Modern Italian food is very different from ancient Roman food, and modern Greek food is very different from ancient Greek food. One of the reasons of course is the introduction of large numbers of new basic foods, like the tomato, peppers, and potatoes from the Americas, eggplant from the east, etc. And the overwhelming gestalt of Greek cuisine (and also Turkish, Bulgarian, Syrian, etc. cuisines) seems undeniably Ottoman. I do agree with you that non-Ottoman influences should be mentioned. As for the ultimate origins of Ottoman cuisine in turn, see that article, which mentions influences from across the Ottoman lands. Despite what Turkish romantics might want to think, little Ottoman cuisine is specifically Turkish or Turkic in origin (baklava and manti are exceptions), but has strong influences from Persia, greater Syria, pre-Turkish Anatolia (Greek, Armenian, etc.), and so on. Anyway, as I say, the more good sources we can get, the better. Alas, there are vast numbers of poor sources (cookbooks etc.) out there. --Macrakis 19:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I agree with Alexius on this one. There is a huge quote on the beginning of the article. I do not question the validity of the quote. I do not contest what you say above (not endorse it either because one need to research for passing a judgement) but sorry to say it just looks ugly. It also looks like an atempt to overstate the "Ottoman" character of the Greek cuisine. The lead and the artcile needs more research and definetely a tone down of "statements" and huge quotes that border POV-warrior tactics. 128.240.229.66 19:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

On what basis do you think it "overstates" the Ottoman character of Greek cuisine?

As for the length of the quote, I only put it in because the shorter versions "Greek cookery is typical of Ottoman cuisine" or "Greek cooking is similar to other cuisines of the region because of their common Ottoman heritage" (which were sourced to Fragner) were repeatedly reworded to vague, weaselly phrases like "Greek cooking has commonalities with other cuisines of the region", which did not accurately represent what Fragner said. It is precisely to avoid POV that I included the quote. And, by the way, what do you think my "POV" is?

PS, who is 128.240.229.66? Did you forget to log in?

Alexius, I now see you're the same anon who deleted the quote -- so I guess it was explained. You should include edit summaries in the future to make this clearer. Also, it is not generally considered good form to take solid, sourced material and simply remove it. You might move it to a "history" or "influences" section, but removing it is not very cooperative.

--Macrakis 20:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I created a new "origins" section as a temporary solution-- the enormous quote in the introduction just looks too ugly and is extraneous.

I agree with you that Greek food changed significantly during the Ottoman occupation with the introduction of peppers, tomatoes, potatoes (which according to tradition were introduced after the revolution) etc. but this does not reflect Ottoman influences. These foods were most probably brought to the region by Italians, Armenians or Greeks who controlled the seafaring in the region. As you must know, most of the mercantile affairs of the Ottoman Empire were handled by Greeks. There is no real reason to call these developments coming from the Americas as "Ottoman influenes." -Alexios Comnenus

I'm not sure what the problem is here. Of course many of the merchants, cooks, etc. were Christian Greeks and not Muslims. But they formed part of Ottoman society. Similarly, if we talk about "Ottoman trade", we certainly don't mean the trade controlled by only Muslim merchants (by the way, they would not have called themselves "Turkish" merchants at the time). Fragner expresses it very nicely in the quote, I think. Along the same lines, when we talk about "American cuisine", we certainly don't exclude foods which were brought by various immigrants, e.g. Italian pizza, German frankfurters, Polish Jewish bagels, etc. What makes it American cuisine is the integration into American society. The further origins of Ottoman cuisine, including Byzantine, Persian, Arab, Spanish, etc. should be discussed in that article. There were also certainly regional and community differences within Ottoman society (as Fragner says). Thus, for example, in Baghdad the Muslims and Christians cooked primarily using sheep-tail fat, while the Jews cooked with sesame oil (which has a very distinctive smell). But that sort of variation is normal within a cuisine. --Macrakis 20:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I rather agree with what Alexios said near the beginning of this section. As part of a longer section on influences, the big quote might be fine. As it stands, it tends to over-privilege the Ottoman element slightly. Maybe I'll have a go at adding some stuff. Andrew Dalby 21:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I think the only way we can move forward on this article is to become more rigorous in the use of sources. Unfortunately, there are lots of poor sources in food history. Almost every cookbook (of every cuisine, not just Greek) is full of legends. Fortunately, there are a few serious sources. Andrew Dalby has done extensive research in original ancient and Byzantine sources and published several books based on this research. He is an excellent source for finding the ancient or Byzantine roots of modern foods. The Zubaida and Tapper collection has many excellent articles. The Oxford Companion to Food is generally good, though the entry on Greek food has lots of good information on current foods, its history is alas weak. But what are we to make of the most recently added source, A Food Technology Handbook, whose blurb describes it as "the authoritative handbook for seasoning developers" -- what historical research went into that book? --Macrakis 17:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)