Talk:Harrow School

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Harrow also has a purpose-built feed school Orley Farm School, which was founded twenty years earlier, in 1850.

Blergh? How can it be a "purpose-built feed school" if the thing it feeds to didn't exist when it was foudned? Morwen - Talk 12:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Sorry abot the ambiguity- Orley Farm founded 20 years earlier than John Lyon School to feed Harrow school. Now clarified

Contents 1 Peer review coments 2 'Old Schools' Drawing 3 Cricket Pavilion 4 Harrow's status as the most recognised and prestigious school in the world. 5 Slang section 6 Goulash Section 7 Proposed Merge 8 This Site is an advert

[edit] Peer review coments

Chriscf- thank you for altering the formating, your help is appreciated. However I feel that your exclusion of the Harrow slang section was unjust and I have replaced it. Harrow slang is unique to Harrow and is very interesting and necessary to any Harrow article. I have tried to clarify this at the start of the section itself. Also can I say that it really is called Speech Day! (The harrow slang for this was at the start of the 20th century 'Speecher'. --Oli 08:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Comparing the slang here to that listed at "the other place", there seems to be a lot of overlap. While I imagine there's plenty of slang around at places like Oxbridge, I would hope that only the commonly-known terms are listed, such as don and blue (a professor and sporting cap respectively). As for Speech Day, I was uncertain, since at my (state) school, we had an event formally known as Prizegiving Evening which was commonly referred to as Speech Day. Thanks for clarifying that. Chris talk back 16:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Old Schools' Drawing

I am intrigued by the drawing which purports to show the 'Old Schools' in 1615.

The drawing clearly shows students playing a racket sport against walls. Some writers assert that the game of Rackets was first codified at Harrow in the early 1800s (after being played informally in prisons and taverns for many years), followed by Squash in the 1860s.

I am interested to know if the drawing is in fact that old, or merely a later rendering showing the old buildings -- if contemporary, it demonstrates the history of these racket games goes back farther than we all thought!

Any ideas?

Cheers

Peter Eedy 08:33, 18 December 2005 (UTC) peter.eedy@gmail.com

Peter, I uploaded this print several weeks ago. I am a current pupil at Harrow, and found this print in the store of the school museum. However I do not think this print was made in 1615. I uploaded it to show the Old Schools before their expansion, not noticing the prescence of rackets players. While I am fairly sure that the drawing was contemporary, it was not made in 1615 as I might have implied. Unfotunately I am home for my christmas holiday at the moment so cannot do futher research on this point, but when I return to school in the new year I will enquire as to its age. I hope this clears things up. --Oli 10:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Oli...

I look forward to the outcome of your research

Regards

Peter

Peter Eedy 20:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I took so long to get back. The print was made by J. Cruishanks in 1795, whcih is still a very early date in the development of Squash. Oli 15:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again Oli

Assuming the date of 1795 is reliable, that places the arrival of Rackets at Harrow earlier than most people thought (the accepted date is the early 1820s -- squash was probably invented at Harrow around the 1850s or 1860s)

See http://www.rackets.co.uk/about/about_history.htm

Good luck with your studies

Regards

Peter

Peter Eedy

[edit] Cricket Pavilion

I've had it suggested to me that the cricket pavilion at Harrow is dedicated to John Maunsell Richardson (1846-1912). I find this surprising as he was not an outstanding player[1] and had greater success as a horse rider (twice Grand National winner - 1873, 1874). Can anyone confirm or deny this claim? Bedders 11:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I am a current Harrovian and will check this out for you when I am next there. This may not be for several weeks however.--Oli 16:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harrow's status as the most recognised and prestigious school in the world.

This statement has been constantly included and reverted from the article over the last few pages, unless you can support this statement with some evidence, it is just going to be reverted as POV pushing Bedders 07:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

As a current Harrovian I have deliberately kept out of this discussion until now, for obvious reasons. However, I would like to add that if you look at Google Trends for a comparison between Harrow and Eton you will find that Harrow in fact recieves more searches. You will also find that over half these searches originate from Thailand, where Harrow runs an international school. On balance I feel that the statement should be toned down but not deleted entirely.--Oli 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify things, I have no connection to Harrow or any other famous school, I started watching this page becuase I put a question about the cricket pavilion on this talk page. I don't think you establish which is the most recognised and prestigious. It is certainly highly recognised, but without a large survey it cannot be the most recognised. My previous attempt at solving this was "status as a worldwide school brand.", but I think something along the lines of "Highly prestigous school with worldwide recognion" might be more acceptable. Bedders 09:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oli: I'm not sure that the Google Trends comparison is valid. "Harrow" is also (as I'm sure you know) the name of a London borough with a population of 200,000. It's impossible to tell how many of those google trends searches actually apply to the school, except by using quotes, and I don't think that's really very meaningful. By comparison, the village of Eton has a population of 3000-ish (1970 estimate). Bedders: I've been fighting a battle with some of the same people who keep reinstating this Harrow statement over at Eton College where they are trying to push a phrase about Harrow (and Winchester's) recognition which has no evidence or wider support. It's really frustrating and they are definitely trying to push a Harrow-fame agenda. Raoul2 10:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that this tussle is going to continue until both Eton and Harrow, both have more neutral phrasing in terms of fame. It seems that here is heated passion on both sides. the current verbage should i hope satisfy both - Beak99 2:05pm GMT

I hope so, it's time consuming and pointless and all over one sentence! They are all famous, but you can never get a ranking of this fame Bedders 12:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd love to know why someone thinks Eton, Harrow and Winchester are more famous than Rugby, say. They're all famous schools. It's pointless trying to claim that one is more famous than the other or that any particular schools are more famous than any other particular schools. This appears to be blatant POV pushing, probably by old boys of those particular schools. -- Necrothesp 23:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is a difficult question, but certainly Eton and mostly Harrow are generally seen as the most famous. Media, popular opinion, royal patronage, general attitudes... The average person in the USA for example is far more likely to know of Eton than Rugby simply because of the Princes. Yanksta x 21:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Eton I would certainly agree with you. There is so much mythology around Eton that it is in a league of its own; the others just don't join it there. If I was pushed to name three of the most famous public schools, I'd probably choose Eton, Harrow and Rugby, but others would undoubtedly choose other groupings (although I'd be honestly surprised if anyone didn't pick Eton). Any claims of this nature are purely subjective and don't belong in an encyclopaedia. I suspect they are generally made by old boys of schools other than Eton who are a bit miffed that Eton is more famous. -- Necrothesp 22:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's one of those things that depends on who you are speaking to. If you speak to someone who knows little of private British education, then undoubtedly Eton takes the cake, if only because of the recent media coverage (mostly since the Princes started there, though Gordonstoun doesn't get much attention for Charles attending, but then celebrity-coverage wasn't as big then). However, as can be seen by the editors of this article, among the type of people who are actually likely to be able to attend/ send their kids there, there will be little, if any, discernment between Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Winchester etc. If you met a typical British aristo, I think they'd be surprised that any one of these school was "more famous" than any other. I guess that does sort of say that Eton is the most famous, but does it have any encylopedic merit if its "fame" is a result of mostly media hype? Doesn't this become a bit like that whole thing with Jade Goody being the 26th most influential person in the world?--Zoso Jade 19:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Although this has no relevance on Wikipedia, British aristocrats do indeed tend to find Eton preferable to other schools, as to most of British high society, although Harrow comes a reasonably close second. Nevertheless, the image of Eton worldwide does easily eclipse Harrow. Yanksta x 20:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slang section

The slang section is a bit of a shambles - I have put in a clean-up tag and hope to be able to get round to do a little clean up soon. --5telios 10:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this section. Slang is a tricky area but this is unsourced and unverifiable, failing WP:V. Those terms that are independently sourced can go back. BlueValour 23:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goulash Section

The section originally read:

"First published in 1922, it ran for over 80 years as the school's satirical magazine, before being suppressed in 2003 by the headmaster Mr Barnaby Lenon. Who disapproved of free speech. The final publication was deemed to be too outrageous."

First of all, "who disapproved of free speech" should probably have a citation of some sort. Also, it doesn't appear to be a complete sentence, nor even a sentence at all. So, for now I am going to just make it part of the previous sentence(change the period to a comma, and get rid of the capital letter). I'll give it a few days like that, to see what everyone thinks, but I think the disapproved of free speech phrase needs support/citation if it is going to remain. Mmenolas 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge

I am proposing a merge because some action needs to be taken on Houses of Harrow School. I am (most of the time) the only registered editor that has been monitoring this article (and I have no connection to Harrow). The impossible situation has now been reached where we have an edit dispute going on through the medium of the School IP User:212.219.59.222 and there is no way I can assess which of the edits, particularly to 'Notable former members', are reliable and which are vandalism. I have put some structure into the article which is as far as I can go.

One way forward would be for the School authorities to create an account and email the name so we know which edit to trust. The default is to merge the articles so that the 'Houses' will attract the attention of more editors. The combined articles would be about 36Kb or thereabouts so it would not be unduly large. BlueValour 21:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I monitor the article on and off. I suggest that any additions be referenced either by a mention in the article of the famous person (if no article, why not? if not famous why on the list?), or by a reference as is usual in WP to another source. I disagree with the merger, because some of the house sections could become articles in their own right. At the moment they are lists of old boys - something which is not so good. --5telios 09:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge them. The houses are not notable in and of themselves, and thus do not merit their own articles, even the current situation is something of a stretch. Chris cheese whine 09:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This Site is an advert

It may have some truth but this site purely advertises the school rather than giving information about it i've added some well needed information about price fixing in an effort to make it a more reliable source.

--Wiggstar69 14:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)