Talk:Hel (being)
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"Her name is cognate with the English word hellywelly." Wouldn't her name rather be the Source of the English word Hell, rather than a cognate? I would believe early Christian preachers used the heathen word Hell, as well as other pre-Christian concepts, to help spreading the new religion to common people in Northern Europe.
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[edit] Her Birth
I think perhaps more detail should be provided on her birth. The way it's currently written makes the common mistake of impling she was concived in the usual manner. This is not so and may put Loki in a worse light than nessessary.
The [Asir] where attempting to kill Angarboden, but she wouldn't stay dead. After the first two attempts, she simply came back to life. So, on the third attempt, Loki eats her heart. This succeeds in killing her, but the ill effects thereof lead to the creation of three of Loki's "children": Hel, Fenrir, and Jormungund.
[edit] Page move plan
I don't think Hel is called a "goddess" in any of the ancient sources. I think putting "goddess" in the title misleadingly suggests that she was worshipped, something for which there is no evidence. If no one objects or has a better idea I will move this page to Hel (daughter of Loki). - Haukur Þorgeirsson 15:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe something shorter would be better, but what? Hel (person) is misleading since it suggests she is human. How about Hel (being)? My feel for English isn't good enough to estimate whether that is a good name. Thoughts? Or does no-one care what I do as long as it doesn't involve diacritics? ;) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 18:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
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- "Being" is very vague in English; I will say that, as an English speaker, I'm comfortable with her being referenced as a goddess; while she wasn't worshipped, she was part of the extended family of the Aesir. Though, of course, I wouldn't go with the designation of "god" for Fenrir or Jormundgandr, so there you have it. If "mythological figure" is good wiki-ese, it would work; it's accurate, without being quite as wordy as "daughter of Loki". ---Mr. Nexx 05:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Hmm... maybe. At any rate I'm not comfortable with "goddess" - if she's the daughter of Loki and Angrboða she doesn't have a drop of godly blood. She is, as far as I know, never referred to as a god(dess) in the ancient sources and there is no evidence that she was worshipped. I don't really like "mythological figure" - the disambiguation is needed because of Hel (realm) and I wouldn't want that to be at Hel (mythological realm). And I don't really like "daughter of Loki" for various reasons. I'm moving it to "being" for now - it's better than "goddess" and if someone comes up with something better than we can move it again. - Haukur 23:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
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"Hel (entity)" sounds nice. 66.63.86.156 23:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hel in modern literature, movies, etc.
- Hel plays a role in Marvel Comics' Thor series.
- Hel causes much trouble for David, Christopher, Jalil and April in K.A. Applegate's book series, Everworld.
- Hel, called Hild, also appears notably in Kosuke Fujishima's Aa! Megami-sama manga strip. (Here she is depicted seemingly in the older sense, evil and cunning but also somewhat fun-loving and true to her word. In the manga, she and Odin fathered the elder norn Urd, who therefore has two distinctly different and conflicting sides to her personality. Like Wagner and others, the author took some notable liberties with the original Norse mythology.)
[edit] What's about non-christian version?
My articles with sources have been censured. You have motivation I suppose, (I know that my Englih isn’t so good! I’m only a Viking) but there’s still a big problem to be impartial in Wiki ! When articles speak about Norse mythology we have only the Christians’ opinion! What's about Asatruar opinion? For us it isn’t mythology! Today Christians are quiet and Honest and I respect them, but history claim and prove that Christians were like ayatollahs during thousand years! How can one thinks that they give us the truth on our Viking’s believes and pagan one?: All serious Historians agree with this(Boyer, Renaud, Mabire, Musset, Barthelemy…)(christians were inspired by vitae latina and bible) Here my article: We have to remember that it's the Christian clerks whom wrote and translated sagas, written a few centuries after the Viking era. But this version is contradicted in the Odal Properties, and also by the historians, as for the bad faith of their authors whom wanted to destructed pagan believes!(1)(2) In the pagan version when you don't die like an Einherjar there is “the straw’s death”. That means “natural death in the bed”. In that case of death the spirits take the way for Hel where the quiet and mysterious Hela, Goddess of death, who has half face in the shadow of darkness and the other part in the brightness of the life, leads spirits (Fylgja) on a ship which follows the current of one of the twelve rivers Eligavar. One of these rivers brings them in the country of Gimle (same as Greek Champs-Élysées). (1) sources: "L'Islande Médiévale" Régis Boyer, Guide belle lettres des civilisations ISBN 2-251-41014-7 and "Le Christ des barbares" Régis Boyer, les Editions du cerf 1987 ISBN 2-204-02766-9Thorgis 16:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- I understand what you mean, and I’m sorry for my English. I’ll take care to stay completely neutral in regards to subjects. I’m not accustoming yet with encyclopedic definition! The article "Theories" confirm what I want to explain "description of Hel is of later date, and that she originally was a much more neutral goddess" If you think that the following article is better, I request your help to translate in good English with changing few words if I still write not neutral sentences. Here my new article: Historians know (1) that a large majority of Norse Mythology have been wrote or translate by Christians few centuries after Viking period, they wanted to give a bad look for Norse Gods. For the oral tradition the spirits fylgja whom had a “a straw death” that means, natural death or “none-fighting” death, they go to Hel, where: "the quiet and mysterious Hela the , Goddess of death, who has half face in the shadow of darkness and the other part in the brightness of the life”, led them on a ship which follows the current of one of the twelve rivers Eligavar. One of those rivers brings them in country of Gimle (same as Greek Champs-Élysées)
sources: (1) "L'Islande Médiévale" Régis Boyer, Guide belle lettres des civilisations ISBN 2-251-41014-7 "Le Christ des barbares" Régis Boyer, les Editions du cerf 1987 ISBN 2-204-02766-9 Thorgis 14:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
So it sounds to me like Hel really is a Goddess. I'm not sure that pagan deities were or had to be 'worshipped' in the modern sense of the word. As a matter of fact, I'd suggest that they were NOT worshipped, but rather revered and respected. The idea of 'worshipping' implies being inferior to the deity. I think 'worship' is what the Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Hindu 'High' gods demand. They are somehow vastly superior to humans, who are next to nothing in their eyes. I don't think pagan gods were this totalitarian or dictatorial.
At any rate, could we please change the title of the article back to 'the Goddess Hel'?? Athana 12:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] RE: Theories, Hel as a neutral goddess
From the article it says, It has been suggested that this description of Hel is of later date, and that she originally was a much more neutral goddess over the realm of shadows, where all, both good and evil, courageous and cowardly, gather after death. Tell me where one gets the idea that Hel is not a neutral being? True, her possessions are hunger, famine, etc, but Odin is just as much to blame, for he is the one who organized the situation. This is unlike Fenrir (or even Jormundgand), who is actually a dangerous and problematic foe who needed to be handed. Furthermore, this article is about Hel as the being, not the realm. The defining characteristic for dying is whether or not it was a death suffered in combat. Those who do not die in combat go to the realm(s) of Hel (the being) while those who do die in combat go to either Valhalla or Fólkvangr. If Hel is really such a bad or evil goddess, explain something she has done that is malicious or lawbreaking that was actually her own doing, instead of something ascribed (by either Odin or Loki) for the purpose of creating a scapegoat to empower some apparently holy or good aristocracy of warriors and gods. --Trakon 10:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Everything in the Theories section needs to be properly cited or removed. Furthermore, if something has primary sources (of Norse Mythology itself) as references, then it should probably not be under the theories section, but the article itself, if not another section on equivocations or inconsistencies. --Trakon 10:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Naglfar
I have checked and cannot find a direct reference to Hel building Naglfar. I am going to remove it. If you find a source, please also add it to the Naglfar article. --Trakon 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
