Portal talk:Heraldry

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	Heraldry and Vexillology Portal PortalHeraldry is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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Contents 1 Portal Creation 2 June Updating Plan 2.1 Selected article 2.2 Selected picture 2.3 Selected biography 2.4 Did You Know? 3 Template Format 4 July Updating Plan 4.1 Selected article 4.2 Selected picture 4.3 Selected biography 4.4 Did You Know? 5 National Archives of South Africa 6 Updates & Suggestions 7 Who can describe something for me? 8 Userbox 9 French-speaking blazon project 10 WikiProject 11 Automation 12 A (very) rambling, bulletted hello

[edit] Portal Creation

Fellow editors, Following the consensus reached that an heraldic portal would be welcome at Wikipedia, I have started the portal. Rest assured that I have NO IDEA what I'm doing. If you can think of a way to improve this portal, do so as soon as possible. I won't be offended by any changes to my material, because I know I've not done much good yet.--Eva ^db 11:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• From what I've seen it looks very good. Excellent job Eva ^db. Dryzen 19:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
• Looks great, but I think Eire should be called Republic of Ireland... Lozleader 19:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

How about Ireland? It fit the formating better.--Eva ^db 06:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Much better Lozleader 08:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Good job Evadb! I have a few suggestions to offer

• Since heraldry is not a hot news topic, perhaps we could drop the News box :)
• We should have some method (and regular interval) for updating the selected article/picture/biography. See for example the Archive and Candidates links on Portal:Scouting. Monthly is probably an appropriate frequency, maybe we could update the selected items on the first of each month.
• I notice in the open tasks box you have links to a Heraldry Wikiproject. Do you plan to propose such a project? (I don't see any mention at Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects) My feeling is that this would just create more administration, where the time would be better spent on the articles themselves. In that case I would suggest replacing contents of the Things you can do box with something like what's currently at User:Dr pda/Sandbox. We could also have a page (Portal:Heraldry/Todo_list perhaps) listing articles which need to be created, like the lists of Officers and Offices of Arms on your userpage.
• Finally, most (all?) of the links in the Wikimedia sister projects template at the bottom go to non-existing articles. I wonder if all these are necessary? (Though to edit we would have to copy the text of the Template:WikimediaForPortals, rather than using the Template itself). The Commons link in particular points to Commons:Heraldry which is an empty article, while Commons:Category:Heraldry has a number of images. If someone has time, maybe they could organise some of the images into an article (i.e. galleries), or otherwise just make Commons:Heraldry a redirect to Commons:Category:Heraldry (although this seems a bit of a hack).

Dr pda 21:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the great input, Dr pda. All of your thoughts seem very good to me. I'll plan on booting the "News" link. It was part of the basic template, so I left it on, but your comment is well founded. As for the Things you can do, I just followed the template of one of the featured portals. That explains the wikiproject bits. I think that your sandbox template is wonderful and think that the portal should use that. I'll plan on adding that information, as well. Keep up the great work.--Eva ^db 09:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] June Updating Plan

Good day, folks. The end of the month is close at hand. I think it would be good to start a list of possible candidates for the portal template subpages for the month of June. Changing things on the first of the month seems reasonable to me. Here is what I think might be nice:

[edit] Selected article

• Either Lord Lyon King of Arms or Court of the Lord Lyon (this would help balance out the English bias in this months feature

• How about the Canadian Heraldic Authority instead? Both the Lord Lyon and Lyon Court articles are a bit light on content, whereas the CHA article has been featured on the main page Dr pda 14:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Good point. That sounds like a good choice to me.--Eva ^db 15:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selected picture

• Image:Sir Francis Grant, Lord Lyon King of Arms, H.R.H. .jpg (this is a great PD picture of Lord Lyon in action)

[edit] Selected biography

• Elias Ashmole (this was recently chosen as a featured article and will be put on the mainpage in early June. If we can beef up the heraldic content, it would be even better)

[edit] Did You Know?

• I've not had enough time to look around and see what tidbits can be used here. Suggestions welcome:

• Rodney Dennys left his career in the British intelligence service to become an officer of arms Dr pda 14:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• The Ypotryll has the head of a boar, the body of a camel, the legs and hooves of a goat and the tail of a serpent -- Dave Boven 14:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• During the Second World War the records of the College of Arms were stored in Thornbury Castle (pictured), home of Sir Algar Howard, Norroy and Ulster King of Arms Dr pda 22:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the rest can stay as is indefinitely, but changes may be nice now and again to keep things fresh. Let me know what ya'll think of these things.--Eva ^db 09:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the Portal with the appropriate suggestions. I think it looks pretty good and ought to stay that way for a month or so. Well done.--Eva ^db 07:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template Format

On my screen, the Quotes and the To Do List seem to have migrated from the right column to the bottom of the page. I'm not good enough at wikiformatting to put them back where they belong. Anyone else?--Eva ^db 07:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. There was a stray </div> tag at the end of the selected biography which was the culprit. Nice job on the update by the way. Dr pda 10:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You Rock! Great work and thanks.--Eva ^db 10:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] July Updating Plan

We might as well start thinking about a July plan for updating right now. If you have suggestions for these categories, list them here for discussion.--Eva ^db 10:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selected article

Ecclesiastical heraldry --Dr pda 23:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I was checking "what links here" and saw this. Any chance we could get this article up to WP:GOOD status? Gimmetrow 12:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

You're doing a great job so far, it's a well-written and well-referenced article. I'd hoped putting it as this month's selected article would encourage a few more people to have a look at it. Dr pda 14:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Selected picture

One of the following --Dr pda 23:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Pursuivants at Garter Service

Heralds at Garter Service

[edit] Selected biography

Johannes Rietstap --Dr pda 23:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did You Know?

...that the coat of arms of Greenland depicts a polar bear raising its left forepaw, breaking with the heraldic tradition of showing the right forepaw raised, because polar bears are left-handed? (appeared on the Main Page on June 17 2006) Dr pda 18:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

...that the horseman depicted on the Coat of arms of Moscow was not identified with Saint George until the 18th century? (appeared on the Main Page on June 25 2006) Dr pda 23:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Archives of South Africa

Various heraldry pages have links to www.national.archsrch.gov.za; these always (for me) lead to a page which begins "Existing session timed-out. Restarting." If that's a subscription service, it doesn't belong here. —Tamfang 18:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I get the same thing. What I suspect is happening is that an editor has searched the heraldry database of the Bureau of Heraldry (there's a link to it on the 'session timed out' page), and then copied the URL of the search result into the article. Unfortunately the URL is only valid for the current session, so when you or I later try to follow it it doesn't work. As far as I can see it's not a subscription service. Dr pda 14:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Updates & Suggestions

Hi all, I've updated the portal for August. I've done the last couple of updates now, since Evadb who set up the portal has left Wikipedia, but I don't want to be the only one keeping it alive. I've added links to suggestion pages for the selected article/biography/picture and did you know, so feel free to make suggestions for future updates, or better yet, update the portal yourself next time the first of the month rolls around! (monthly seems to be an appropriate frequency) Dr pda 23:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I made a template that could be used for selected articles and pictures: Template:SelectedHeraldry. Gimmetrow 00:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That template is now incorportated into the WP:HV project template. Gimmetrow 05:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who can describe something for me?

I am just wondering who can describe the City of Blacktown "coat of arms" to improve what is currently on the page? a link to the image on the local council website is in the article. TIA! --Garrie 01:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The heraldic description (blazon) can actually be found on the council website as well. In the navigation box click the citation link which is directly under the 'coat of arms' link. This page has the text of the letters patent granting the coat of arms. The blazon is towards the end:

The decription of the shield is Per chevron Sable and Or in chief two sprigs of Sunshine Wattle (Acacia discolor) and issuant in base the head of an Australian Aborigine Sable

The description of the crest (the device on top of the shield) is Upon a Helm with a Wreath Or and Sable A Kookaburra proper supporting with its dexter claw a Boomerang Gold

The description of the supporters (the figures on either side of the shield) is Dexter a large Grey Kangaroo and sinister a Chestnut Trotting Horse proper

--Dr pda 09:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

Hello, I made a userbox for us here, use it if you like it:

{{User:Merewyn/Userboxes/Heraldry}}

It contains the authentic coat of arms from Polish heraldry, called Przyjaciel (it means: "Friend"). My family was using it.
I would like to ask only for help in putting this userbox to the list of Wikipedia userboxes if it is possible...
Merewyn 13:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Here is another:

{{User:Boven/heraldry}}

[edit] French-speaking blazon project

The French-speaking blazon project has been entirely revised, the creation of blazons is now vectorial. A start guide for newcomers has been created and many new charges, ordinaries and surrounding elements have enriched the already existing base, in order to give to the most what is necessary for a simplified creation of free blazons. Thus, don't hesitate to participate, you'll see it's easy and fun to do. What we particularly need is draftsmen for charges creating. See more details on the welcome page of the project. Amically, the French-speaking blazon project team.

[edit] WikiProject

The Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject has just been created. Inge 17:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

How do people feel about this new project "adopting" this portal? If so, should it be renamed and repurposed to include flags and all things vexillogical as well as the existing subject matter? An alterative route could be to have a Vexillogical portal instead. Thoughts? Objections? --Billpg 19:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think it would be nice to have the project adopt the portal. I'd be happy if a separate vexillological portal was created, or if such material was merged here.--dave-- 12:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Allthoug we (the project participants) don't know how much work this portal involves and how much work the participants in the project are willing to put in yet, I am very much in favour of an adoption. A single portal for heraldry and vexillology might be less time consuming and the best option until we know which resources we have in the project and portal. Two portals might be desirable in the long run though. Inge 13:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict: I started writing this before the above response, which makes basically the same points)

I also think it would be good for the project to adopt the portal. As you can tell by the large number of responses (!) to this question manpower is an issue; since User:Evadb left I think it has more or less just been me and User:Boven who have done anything to maintain/update the portal (thanks for doing some of the September updates btw Dave). Having more people on board would help; also, having the portal associated with the project provides a way that articles created or improved as a result of the project can be showcased, as DYK/selected articles etc. Regarding the vexillological stuff, I would probably be inclined to merge it with the heraldry portal. A portal does require a certain level of effort and at least a few people, to keep it alive, and the number of people in the project is still relatively small. We could always split off the vexillology as a separate portal/sub-portal later on if the need arises. (The combined portal would also have a nice correspondence to the scope of the WikiProject). Dr pda 13:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As per the consensus above and at WP:HV I have converted the Heraldry Portal to the Heraldry and Vexillology Portal. It is still at Portal:Heraldry (since I think each sub-page would have to be moved separately, which seems a lot of work, particularly if we want to split heraldry and vexillology again at some point in the future), but there is now a redirect at Portal:Heraldry and Vexillology. I don't have much vexillological expertise, so anyone who does, feel free to modify what I've added. --Dr pda 01:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Automation

The selected content should be automated here, eventually. I can think of two approaches. There might be a pool of selected articles, and one is chosen randomly when the page is loaded. Or each day of the month (or week of the year) might be assigned a selected article, which would then cycle through each month (or year). The first approach is scalable to any amount of selected content. The second is basically limited to a finite quantity, say 31 or 52 slots. To begin with, some of the slots would have the same content. Thoughts or other ideas? Gimmetrow 23:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

A third approach (similar to the second, but non-cyclic) is to queue up the Selected Content in advance, as is done on some other portals (e.g. Portal:New Zealand) and also for the featured article on the Main Page (i.e. with subpages like Portal:Heraldry and vexillology/Selected article/March 2007).

I think manually selecting the articles, as opposed to random selection from a pool, is a good thing as it allows the possiblity of featuring articles which have recently made FA or GA, which may be an added incentive to bring articles to such a standard. One of the problems at the moment (for any method of updating) is that there is not an overly large pool of high quality (i.e. GA and above) Heraldry and Vexillology articles, particularly biographies. I guess at some point in the future when there are hundreds of such articles (!) then random selection might be the way to go. Dr pda 00:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If I were to program it, I would probably create a slot for each week of the year. If an article recently made FA or GA, it could be substituted in the next duplicated spot. There are 31 FA/A/GA articles together, right now -- plenty of space for future articles. An article for some future month is already queued up, too; wanted something other than another tricolor. Since there are so few biographies (and few candidates for improvement to GA), perhaps biographies should be merged to articles? Gimmetrow 00:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A (very) rambling, bulletted hello

Hi! I would like to join your project and improve and improve some of the more neglected articles on vexillology.  :D

I know very very little about heraldry and vexillology but it looks like there is work I could do even as a complete ameteur. I come across a lot of articles I could "fix", but I don't know how the Heraldry project feels about the details:

• The article on crescents seems to fall prettymuch into this projects domain. I was going to put a {{WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|class=NA}} on it, but I thought I should ask first.
• I edited the flag of Guam page, but was left confused on these (and other) points:
  • I'm pretty sure "emblem" is not the right term, but I don't think "blazon" is not the right term either. I left it as "emblem" because that seemed the most readable.
  • The article on the seal of Guam is named Coat_of_arms_of_Guam; should the page be renamed Seal_of_Guam, or is it preferred that all articles on seals, great seals, coats of arms, etc. be Coat_of_arms_of_ articles? (My guess is the second option is better)
  • On the seal, is Guam written in red letters or is it colored in gold letters? Various editors had changed it back and forth :/
  • The discussion at FOTW [1] seemed unanimous on the point that the flag was originally adopted in 1917. Since there was no argument there, should I have changed the date in the article?
• Many heraldry articles are marked as a stubs.... There's not much more to say about the flag of Guam though. It might even be argued that with one or two more sentences, the article will include the sum total of all human knowledge on the subject. When is a stub ready to graduate into an article?
• On the other hand, the flag of Afganistan might deserve 2 articles, a main article and a history of.

Anyway, I was hoping you could fill me in on the more general guidelines and the more obscure details of the project before I dive in. Thanks! --Haikon 03:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: I am new to wikipedia, and I looked in earnest for your general guidelines before I asked, so please, if they are somewhere just direct me :$

You might want to drop in on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. It's OK to add a WP:HV banner to Crescent. The history of the flag of Guam seems a little complicated, as it has been modified a bit over time; the 1948 year probably comes from the sources mentioned on FOTW, although saying it was "adopted" then seems misleading. The article is a stub because this confusing history is not described. Non-stub flag articles typically also discuss who designed the flag, what the colors and symbols represent, and why any details were modified (such as the border). I would start by looking up the sources mentioned in the FOTW page, reading those carefully, and trying to decipher the history of this flag. Gimmetrow 01:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)