Talk:Heraclius

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Contents 1 Avars 2 Organization 3 Heraclius' Ethnic Origins - Greek Or Armenian? 4 "Native of Armenia"? 5 Ethiopia 6 Cultural depictions of Heraclius

[edit] Avars

This article mentions the Avars but WIkipedia has two articles about Avars: Caucasian and Eurasian. To which does this article refer? Jaberwocky6669 21:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Eurasian. I fixed. --Jfruh 01:05, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

CHEERS!!!!!

[edit] Organization

This article could be organized into subsections. It would ease expansion of the article, and thrust greater clarity upon the text. Calgacus 02:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Heraclius' Ethnic Origins - Greek Or Armenian?

In the article Heraclius is stated as being Armenian or partly Armenian: "He was the son and namesake of the powerful Armenian Exarch of Africa, who had been one of East Roman Emperor Maurice's key generals in the 590 war with Persia."

Originally all sources give him as Greek by his father (I haven't seen anything about his mother though, his father was the offspring of a very well known Greek family) not even "with Armenian blood" - Does anyone have any reliable sources which can back up if he was Armenian or partialy Armenian?

BTW you can't call "Armenian" someone who doesn't even speak Armenian, the most you can tell is "he had Armenian blood by his father's side" (as was the case with Basil I and Tzimiskes), What would an Armenian governor be doing in Cyrenaica anyway?

While I don't really know much about Heraclius' ethnicity -- and in fact I think that talking about ethnicity at all in this period is a very tricky thing -- it's no mystery how he might end up in the exarchate of Africa (which is modern Tunisia rather than Cyrenacia, by the way): he was appointed to the post by Maurice. Heraclius the Elder was originally from Anatolia, which is where he proved himself as a general. It's perfectly possible that his family was originally Armenian and then Hellenized (especially considering that we know almost nothing about Heraclius the Elder's ancestors). However, just because it's possible doesn't make it so. Personally, I'm all for taking ethnic identifiers out of the article all together in the absense of firm sourcing. --Jfruh 15:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Theophylact Simocatta (Hist. 3.1.1.), John of Nikiu (Chron. 109.27) and Theophanes (AM. 6078, 6100, 6101 & 6102) claim that Heraclius' background is Armenian, whilst a 12th century historian says Cappadocian ... two ideas which do not contradict each other. Other African commanders such as Soloman and John Troglitas (not to mention Belisarius) also had eastern backgrounds. For this, see Walter Kaegi, Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantium . - Calgacus 15:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just went and checked out the biography of Heraclius that was the source for my major rewrite of this article some months back. It's called "Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantium," is written by the Byzantine scholar Walter Kaegi, and published by the Cambridge U. Press, and is the most recent work on Heraclius. Kaegi talks about the family's "probable" Armenian origin on pages 21-23 of the book, citing Theophylact Simocatta and John of Nikiu, as well as a host of secondary articles. He says the "preponderance of evidence" points to an Armenian origin for Heraclius the Elder, but that the emperor Heraclius' mother may have been a "Cappaodician" (an ethnic designation that could also include Armenians in a 6th or 7th century context). Whatever the origins of the family, Kaegi says that "we have no evidence on what Armenian consciousness, if any, either Heraclius possessed"; later he says "presumably Heraclius [the emperor] was bilingual (Armenian and Greek) from an early age, but even this is uncertain." So, on balance, I think that maybe the article should be tweaked to note the family's probable Armenian origin, rather than just baldly calling Heraclius the Elder an Armenian. --Jfruh 15:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

For sure, Heraclius was a Roman in any case; Armenian could only ever be a "background". - Calgacus 15:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I tweaked the text. See what you think. --Jfruh 16:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It's fair enough. Do you think BTW that this article could be doing with organization into sections? - Calgacus 16:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, heh, I'm way ahead of you -- check it out and feel free to tweak. --Jfruh 16:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

That's just what the article needed. When I've finished my current projects, I'll try and add a few things. Perhaps we can one day get an article like the featured-article Julius Caesar. - Calgacus 17:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Nobody was Greek or Armenian. There were only Romans. He was a Roman of Armenian heritage/background, like two dozen other Eastern Roman Emperors.--Eupator 17:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, trying to map modern notions of nationality and ethnicity onto the ancient world is a tricky business. The Roman Empire was multiethnic, and the "Roman" category transcended what we would now call "ethnicity." An individual during this period could easily accommodate both a "Roman" identity and one that we would think of as an "ethnicity." --Jfruh 18:08, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed tricky to assertain the ethnicity of someone from this period. We question is not whether he was Roman or not as he was. (There was a difference between the Greek 'Romios' which meant an actual Roman from the Italian penninsula and the Greek 'Romaios' which meant ethnic Greek citizen of Rome/ East Rome. 'Romaios' was also a synonym of Hellene or Graikos. So far in this discussion no one has provided any sources on his ethnicity yet the article says he is "almost certainly amrenian"?? I will edit the article saying that it is unclear whether or not he was armenian until somebody provides a source

[edit] "Native of Armenia"?

Someone added that H. the elder was a "native of Armenia", citing Theophylactus Simocatta, which I removed. I did so for two reasons:

• My understanding of the T.S. passage from secondary sources is that it concerns the family's ethnicity, not its geographic provenance (though if someone has access to the passage itself it would be helpful for this discussion)
• During the lifetime of the Heraclii there was no separate polity called "Armenia" -- the kingdom had been divided up between the Romans and Persians in the previous century. The term is certainly still used by contemporaries, but there's no agreement on just what geographic is designated by it.

--Jfruh 15:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

the reference is to Heraclius' ethnic background. I don't think anybody was claiming he was born there. It's quite irrelevant whether or not there was a separate polity called "Armenia", but your edit seems fine. - Calgacus 15:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I had added it. I don't disagree with your edit though.

Btw there was no independent Armenia, the territory was still known as such and the population never changed. There is a consenus regarding borders of that period. I'll try and find the exact quote as well as border info. Peter Charanis and Nicolai Adontz have researched this quite thoughroughly.--Eupator 15:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed tricky to assertain the ethnicity of someone from this period. We question is not whether he was Roman or not as he was. (There was a difference between the Greek 'Romios' which meant an actual Roman from the Italian penninsula and the Greek 'Romaios' which meant ethnic Greek citizen of Rome/ East Rome. So far in this discussion no one has provided any sources on his ethnicity yet the article says he is "almost certainly amrenian"?? I will edit the article saying that it is unclear whether or not he was armenian until somebody provides a source

Until someone provides a source? The source was Theophylactus Simocatta, 109-110, and was cited in the article! I reverted --Jfruh 14:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopia

The alliance with Ethiopia isn't mentioned in the Ethiopian or Persian history articles. What is the source? http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/fryehst.html

The original source is the life of an Ethiopian saint. Alas, I cannot remember which one...Ikokki

[edit] Cultural depictions of Heraclius

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, but I'm not sure if Heraclius has ever been depicted in (modern) pop culture. He's an important figure but from a time period that is extremely obscure to modern people. --Jfruh (talk) 17:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)