Talk:Hermetism

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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 July 2006. The result of the discussion was Delete.

if i understand things correctly, hermetism and hermeticism influenced hermetic kabbalah...

Contents 1 Harold Bloom 2 Facts or Fiction? 3 Clarifications 4 Sources 5 NOT the same as the Greek cult of Hermes 6 What the...?

[edit] Harold Bloom

Umm... Not only what harold bloom said was vastly incorrect. But why in hells name would you even ask harold blooms opinion? Because he writes criticism about government? Its that kinda like asking my dentist about how to fix my car? And yeah, hermetic philosophy is related to hermetic kabbalah. Since early christian kabbalahists practiced the rather non-dogmatic feel to religion that the corpus hermeticum has

Well, I balanced out the Bloom quote by debunking it..... if anyone knows where it came from in the first place, I'd love a citation

KV 18:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Facts or Fiction?

Hermetism was the religion of the philosophical elite of Ancient Egypt. In the ancient days, every pagan nation had two religions. The first of these two was that of the philosophical elite which celebrated a pantheistic religion hidden among its mystery schools. Second was the common religion which took the teachings of the mystery schools and turned them into allegorical stories, or myths of gods and goddesses, themselves personifications of aspects of the Universe.

The blanket and categorical statement "every pagan nation had two religions" makes this entire article dubious. Is there any evidence that this so-called Hermetism existed at all in ancient Egypt? How do we know that it is not just a nice piece of fiction? All the best, Jorge Stolfi 01:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

We have the whole Corpus Hermeticum thing.... the earliest version found thus far, in Coptic. And I have that directly cited by a top scholar in the area of the subject. Essentially, he explains that the polytheism in any religion is not meant to be taken literally. This is well accepted in such "polytheistic" religions as Hinduism. Seeing as Hermeticism is based off of Hermes Trismegistus, who is synonomous with Thoth, and we have many Hermetic writings written in his name which were really written by the Egyptian priestcraft, yes, there is evidence that it existed back then.

KV 04:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think this can be asserted in this way. The notion that every pagan nation had two religions is simply not accepted scholarly opinion. This is a retrospective speculation by later adherents of hermetic teaching. One could just as well say 'all pagan religions were devil worship in disguise': some people think that, but it's not an accepted consensus view. And many people in polytheistic religions really are polytheists, even if some sophisticated commentators interpret it otherwise. Also, you can't just say that Hermes Trismegistus is synonymnous with Thoth. Some hermetic writers may have proposed that identification, but some would dispute it, and you can't conflate the two figures. (The Romans said that Diana "was" Artemis, but that doesn't mean that anything you can say about the mythological figure of Artemis automatically applied to Diana too.) Myopic Bookworm 19:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot to come back to this.... I am starting to see where the problem is.... Hall states all pagan nations, but by "pagan" he is more referring to Greece, Egypt, and Mesopotamia, as well as the northern tribes making up most of Europe today. In essence, he means more Paganism as a religion than non-Christian. Perhaps that's the problem here.

Also, the part about Hermes Trismegistus being the same as Thoth and Hermes is something that is widely accepted across Hermetic thought, and I know not of a single Hermeticist, or Hermetist for that matter, who believes otherwise. I also didn't put that forth as such originally, I do believe that was part of the text that I didn't remove. So we'll just have to reword that. Check up on this and make sure I did it right. Thanks.

KV 03:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in reading the section on the equivalence of Thoth and Hermes Trismegistus, "Hermes is usually equated with being the Egyptian god Thoth (Abel and Hare p. 5)" (emphasis added). That is already using the inclusive terminology. I have seen 6 or 7 authors refer to them as being synonomous, some equating it with the Greek Hermes as well, and none not equating the two when discussing Hermes. I do believe that "usually" is the proper word, unless you feel that I need to include that it applies to scholars of Hermetism.

KV 03:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

User:kh7

I think this article is mostly the opinion of Hall, and at the very least G.R.S. Mead should be mentioned in the text, he is mentioned in the links though. I tend to doubt the difference being made between hermeticism and hermetism. I have not heard of this distinction before. kh7 06:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I should be able to get the opinion of E.A. Wallis Budge as soon as my books come in at Barnes and Noble.... but the only people I have heard mention Hermetism is Bloom, who I have left in the article, Hall, and the Three Initiates of the Kybalion. There is comparably more information on Hermeticism..... but with this article existing, I set out to find out what Hermetism was, and I found very little. If you have GRS Mead's opinion, why not add it in?

KV 17:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article seems to just summerize Hall's opinion.

[edit] Clarifications

"It should be noted, however, that Hermetists viewed Hermes as a man, not a god." What are Hermetists here? Is it in ancient Egypt, neo-platonists, or more recent Western tradition? A citation is needed.--Connection 11:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I don't think that Manly P. Hall is a reliable source on this topic. Can you back up his ahem assertions from some reliable academic source. —Hanuman Das 13:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Here from the RfC: I don't think he has any idea what he's talking about. I've spotted numerous mistakes in his books. From my understanding he's not much of a historian. SynergeticMaggot 14:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, his only "degree" seems to be one that only entitles him to wear a funny hat and ride in a golf cart in a parade. And he didn't even have that degree when he wrote his books. -999 (Talk) 15:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with SynergeticMaggot, and 999 (surprised?). Hall is definitely not reliable on the topic. Blueboar 15:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

My jaw just dropped to the floor. Thats how surprised I am. SynergeticMaggot 15:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Give me time over the weekend to back up his claims from other sources.

KV(Talk) 16:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Though admittedly from the organization he created, I was able to find this on Hall, which supports him as a reputable source. Everyone who does speak of him (I didn't want a questionable site to link) spoke highly of him. http://www.prs.org/mphbio.htm

KV(Talk) 16:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats a link to the same org he created. I wouldnt use them, it might be biased. SynergeticMaggot 17:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Source? This guy is a crank. Anyone can write 150 books and essays and deliver 7,500 speeches if you give him 70 years. The only notable statements in his article are the unsourced claims that he is an authority on these topics and that Carl Jung borrowed some books from him. So what? If this counts as a source then "Guy standing on the street corner giving out pamphlets" counts, too. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 00:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOT the same as the Greek cult of Hermes

Here's some probably more reliable information than Manly P. Hall (though I'm not sure that's saying much). It makes clear that Hermetism is syncretic, which means it cannot be the same as the original cult of Hermes.

Hermetism (the original Hermetic source from which the broader tradition of Hermeticism derives) was one of the many products of the meeting of the ancient Hellenic and Egyptian cultures in the centuries surrounding the beginning of the Common Era. Hermetism, described most simply, combined Egyptian and Greek theology, philosophy, and spiritual practice. But of course, it was not that simple.

Perhaps the principle reason the origin of Hermetism is complex is that it found its most fertile home in the great syncretic Græco-Egyptian metropolis of Alexandria, when that city was the cultural capital of the Mediterranean under the Pax Romana. Religious and philosophical wisdom flowed from many cultures into the city, the great spiritual Krater or Mixing Bowl which gave birth to the new synthesis of religion, philosophy, and practice which was Hermetism. Nominally Egyptian, and attributed to the Egyptian God Thoth in the guise of an enlightened ancient master, the Hermetic elixir was composed of ingredients from all the great Traditions active in Alexandria. To the millennia-rich stock of Egyptian religion, philosophy, and magic were added many elements from Greek Paganism (itself influenced throughout its development by Egypt, Anatolia, Phoenicia, and Syria), particularly the Mysteries and the philosophical schools of Platonism, Neo-Platonism, Stoicism, and Neo-Pythagorism; Alexandrian Judaism, with its Angelology, Magic, and deep reverence for the sacred Book; the many forms of Christianity (Gnostic and otherwise); Persian Zoroastrianism, with its deep concern with good and evil; as well as the new developments springing up alongside Hermetism and cross-fertilizing with it, such as Alchemy and Iamblichan Theurgy. [1]

I propose that all information based only on Manly P. Hall be removed from the article post-haste, or that the article be retitled to Hermetism (Manly P. Hall). -999 (Talk) 15:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The source I mentioned in Cult of Hermes which is where I assume this is flowing over here from does not use him as a source for that statement. It uses Churton.

KV(Talk) 16:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks more like discussion on Manly P. Hall's inclusion in this article. I'm neutral for now, until I know more. SynergeticMaggot 16:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What the...?

Why does this article exist? First of all the name - Hermetism - scholars typically use Hermeticism (it's not impossible that some do, but if so, their research should be put in the other article which is goofy but has more promise than this one. Second, the first sentence and premise of this article, that it is Ancient Egyptian (meaning pre-Hellenistic) is fictional until proven. Zeusnoos 17:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's about what I thought when I found this article... There's also Hermeticism and other thought systems which looks equally bogus... -999 (Talk) 17:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That entire article appears to be OR mixed with some unsupported claims such as "Zoroastrianism plays a large role in influencing Hermeticism." This must be proven in the court of scholarship, or at least qualified with "scholar of Hermeticism X claims..." This does not mean that similarities cannot be found but how many wiki articles are dedicated solely to drawing out similarities among disparate traditions? Zeusnoos 17:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it should be AfDed. While there is some cited content that could be moved to other articles, the whole article is basically an essay and not an encyclopedia article. -999 (Talk) 18:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)