Talk:High German languages

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In Low German, you mention it's called "Plautdeutch". What's the equivalent term for High German?

Hochdeutsch, i believe

I'd like to comment a bit (I'm a native German and live in Germany):

The association between "High German" and "Hochdeutsch" appears to be highly misleading because (almost) everyone here uses the term "Hochdeutsch" to refer to the standard written language which is compulsory for all schools and authorities, and most widely accepted in all media. I've seen a map here on Wikipedia that subsumes several vastly different dialects under the umbrella of "Hochdeutsch" which no-one,m except perhaps linguists and local jingoists, would call "Hochdeutsch". What you write "Plautdeutch" - I've never seen that term. Perhaps you mean "Plattdeutsch" or "Plattdütsch" (as they say there, in the northern parts of the country)?

I'd like you to place a big flashing warning sign on the main page that makes it clear to the casual reader that the definition of "High German" used there is highly incompatible with what every native German speaker experiences every day (when in Germany, of course), and that this definition only represents some linguistic classification that means next-to-nothing in everyday's life.

Thank you for listening!

193.221.127.48 10:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Toni Müller Thu Nov 30 11:14:07 CET 2006

That is true for almost anyone in Germany who is not a linguist. However, where I am, in a language department in a German university, the situation is rather different. Here Hochdeutsch means all German dialects south of the Benrath line; linguists are not usually too concerned with standard versions of languages anyway, except in sociolinguistics. You will find the warning you want at High German languages. However, in English there is no confusion, because High German is Hochdeutsch in the technical sense, and Hochdeutsch in the popular sense is "standard German". --Doric Loon 11:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

2002.04.09:
In some High German dialects - the High Alemannic dialects spoken in parts of Germany and Switzerland, there is even initial [x] and [kx], which makes the second sound shifting complete.

I'm not sure this is accurate. Note that English /p/ and /t/ correspond to High German initial & medial affricates and to final fricatives, but /k/ follows an unexpected pattern of /k/ initially and /x/ medially, rather than the expected /kx/:

Linguistically, I suspect that rather than the sound shift being from [x] to [kx], it was from [kx] to [x]. That is, the sequence was stop-affricate-fricative: [k]~[kx]~[x], which would follow the linguistic rule of thumb of sound tending to undergo lenition rather than fortition. This would mean that High German [x] is a later development than Swiss German [kx], which would require revision of the above text. But then why does initial /k/ stay put? Or am I using faulty examples? Anybody know for sure? pgdudda

This table is rather good visually, and could be adapted and put into the article. But no, mitten is not related to Mütze. --Doric Loon 22:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You will find answers to this and many of the other questions asked her in the German Wiki under http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsche_Lautverschiebung. --Doric Loon 22:49, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why is "Fränkisch" described as extinct? afaik, there are dialects in Northern Bavaria and in Hesse that are called "Fränkisch". --zeno 08:25 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

I described it as extinct because Ethnologue says that it is. But their information is surprisingly brief; maybe it's wrong. -- Toby 01:09 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

I have to correct myself, the "Fränkisch" I was referring to is called "Franconian" in English. Frankish was the language of the Franks, but I think it became "extinct" a long time before the 1827 century (this date is stated by Ethnologue). This is the best overview of German dialects (including Lower German) I have seen so far: http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/dialect-e.html -- zeno

I'm not sure that I buy something that classifies Frisian under Low German but doesn't so classify Dutch. (At least the text corrects this.) -- Toby 20:51 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

You have to be carfeul not to mix something up!

• There is a Low Franconian Dialect of Low German, which developed further to Dutch and is related to Low Saxon.
• Secondly there is a region called "Franken" in Northern Bavaria. It has absolutely nothing to do with Dutch dialects.
• The empire of Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse) stretched across Germany and France so many dialects and regions in these two countries, the Netherlands or Belgium have names refering to his empire (Franconian Empire), which itself was named after a tribe which spoke a now extinct language: Franconian.

Ethnologue is probably not speaking of a Bavarian dialect, or they'd classify it as Upper German. But they don't classify it at all, so who knows? Probably they're not sure! -- Toby 20:51 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Of course they don't - Ethnologue is generally unreliable. For historical linguistics there is nothing truly reliable on the internet yet - but if you go to a library, it's all there. Kirk's History of the New High German Language is the place to look for a quick answer. --Doric Loon 22:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The /k/ to /kx/ shift can also be watched in some Bavarian dialects spoken in Austria and northern Italy. However, I do not know about any literature about that. --zeno 08:32 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

P. Stoltzfus: Is Pennsylvania Dutch really a kind of Pfälzisch, or are you making that assumption since the Pennsylvania Dutch originally came from the Palatinate? I wouldn't want to assume that the dialects predominant in that area have stayed the same over the past few centuries. -- Toby 20:40 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

There is a dialect called Plattdeutsch which is spoken in the north western part of Schleswig Holstein (that is near the Danish border) I dunno where it fits in here but if somebody coud make that out it would be worth mentioning here. Hexren me@hexren.net

Plattdeutsch is a colloquial term for dialects in northern Germany. Because of the colloquial property and because of its Low German property Plattdeutsch does not fit to one of the meanings of High German

More information about Plattdeutsch: Low Saxon language 82.82.129.206

There's a Hessisch dialect which drops final 'n' (Kleine Langen -> Klaa Lange, Main -> Maa). Where does it fit in this chart? -phma 11:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hessisch is a form of High German. Keep in mind that many Low German dialects have changed to sound like High German and vice versa: Swiss German sounds almost like Dutch, but Swiss German is High Germanic and Dutch is related to Low Germanic. Jor 22:32, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Swiss German sounds like Dutch??? (Sorry, just trying to imagine Heidi with clogs!) --Doric Loon 22:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move to "High Germanic languages" (done)

I don't doubt that this was done with good intentions, but to repeat the point I've already made at Talk:Low_Germanic_languages: "High Germanic languages" is simply not a term used by anglophone historical linguists. If you doubt it, see how many of the standard works on the History of German you can find that use the term.

And it shouldn't be the place of Wikipedia to promote a terminological innovation (however well motivated) which ignores the accepted conventions in the subject - to use idiosyncratic terminology that no one in the subject would recignize is not NPOV. It really has to be "German" not "Germanic".

Not to mention the fact that no one talks or writes about High German languages, but about High German dialects (which doesn't change the fact that some such as Yiddish are individually called languages). --Pfold 19:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High Germanic doesn't exist

Where is the sense in creating a neologism that isn't used in linguistics? People come here and they want information then they encounter this term "high germanic" (low germanic, respectively) this is just wrong information :S