Talk:Highly Skilled Migrant Programme

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Contents 1 Merge with Immigration to the United Kingdom 2 proof 3 External Link 3.1 WP:COIN response 4 Copyright

[edit] Merge with Immigration to the United Kingdom

Already covered in Immigration to the United Kingdom. No seperate notability. JASpencer 19:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The section of Immigration to the United Kingdom which mentions the HSMP does not seem to give anything like the detail (basis for allocation of points, etc.) which this article does. Do not merge. -- Arwel (talk) 22:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the point of a merge though - some of the info here would be moved across. That's the difference between a merger and a simple deletion. Cordless Larry 22:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• oppose move worth a separate article - this is something people will search for separatelySpartaz 16:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
• This scheme is too different from everything else, agree with Spartaz, Upsss, 25 October 2006
• This has been here a month and the consensus seems to be keep. Shall I remove the tag? --Spartaz 09:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, remove the tag - definitely worth keeping and high interest in this visa. Content updated and correct, but content on the Immigration to the United Kingdom page is out of date - perhaps the Immigration to the United Kingdom page should simply have an internal link to the HSMP page?

OK, I've removed the tag. The article seems to have developed well from what started as basically an advert for a visa agency. Cordless Larry 15:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] proof

how exactly does the british immigration services verfity whether or not these hsmp applicants are telling the truth about having certain qualifications or salaries or if they are just lying so they will get approved? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.244.236 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

As part of the application process, the applicant has to supply documentary evidence of their qualifications and salary, such as original copies of degree certificates and payslips. Work Permits UK then verifies these by contacting the source. It's all outlined here. Cordless Larry 17:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting to note your 'advice' above Cordless Larry. The UK Home Office rarely verify documentation by contacting the source. In addition, they do NOT accept copies of degree certificates and payslips but instead insist upon original documentation, except in very rare and exceptional circumstances. Decisions are primarily made solely based upon the evidence provided and the format of such evidence. I also wonder why the link to HSMP Guidance Notes goes through uk.sitestat.com and not directly to the workingintheuk.gov.uk website? Spooky69 11:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I presume it goes through uk.sitestat.com because the Home Office use that to monitor traffic (incidentally, you can also find it at http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/6353/11406/49552/HSMPguidancenotes26012007.doc). As you can see from the document, it's the offical Home Office guidance notes, so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of misleading somehow. My answer was based purely on Home Office documentation. I'm sorry if this doesn't match your experience, but that's the Home Office's fault, not mine. Cordless Larry 23:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Home Office guidance makes clear that original documents are required and that photocopies are not acceptable. With all due respect, I think it is always important to only advise on matters when you understand them. People might read such advice, believe it to be true and then waste several hundred pounds on a Home Office fee for an application that simply will not be approved. Spooky69 10:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, but I'm still not entirely sure how I'm supposed to have mislead anyone given that all I did was set out the Home Office guidance. Are you saying that they don't verify qualifications, because in the guidance it says "Evidence provided in respect of points being claimed must be from a clear source. Work Permits (UK) may seek to verify this evidence with the source. You must ensure that any evidence provided can be independently verified". Cordless Larry 22:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Plus, I never said that photocopies were acceptable, as you claim. I said "original copies of degree certificates and payslips" - originals, not photocopies. Cordless Larry 23:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You interpreted the Home Office guidance, as they say that they "may seek to verify" and "can be ... verified" - entirely different to saying that they do or will. These are significant differences and the devil is in the detail, to coin a phrase. Anyway, this is probably not the place for discussions relating to the detail of such matters, suffice to say that I felt your initial response stating that "the Home Office will check and verify by contacting the source" could give people a false sense of security and your comment was a misinterpretation of the rules. Again, I am not trying to be awkward about this, but a small mistake can be very costly for people whose career relies on a correctly made application. I have no doubt that you were simply trying to be helpful, but this could result in someone not putting in suitable evidence on the basis that they think the Home Office will call their previous employer or University and check their claimed points, when the reality is that this is unlikely to happen and would usually result in refusal. As an example of the way that things currently work, a US citizen or Australian citizen must prove their English language ability in order to apply for the HSMP, but a Romanian citizen does not have to prove this. This is not something that you will find in HSMP guidance notes - it is buried much deeper. 62.49.218.194 09:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I guess I should have stressed the may. Although I hope people are reading the guidance notes themselves rather than relying on the talk page of a Wikipedia article for advice before applying! And surely people would still submit documents if they thought they were going to be verified - that's kind of the point of verification. Cordless Larry 22:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Link

I took down the link to a free HSMP calculator because when completed it led to a commercial site - looks like its a device to drum up business and therefore advertising. No thanks. --Spartaz 12:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The points calculator is an extremely useful tool for people interested in this visa and does not require anything from the user - no personal details are required for the purposes of self-assessment on what was the first points calculator on the internet under the new HSMP rules. So what if the points calculator is on a commercial site? Does this make it of less value? Again, nothing is required from the user - it is free. Even if they ask us for a professional assessment, this is also free. This was updated on the day of the changes being made and it should be seen as a useful resource that will always be kept up to date. The HSMP article was seemingly abandoned, as it was incorrect and entirely out of date when I invested my time in writing this article. Finally, it is also worth noting that a lot of people are in terrible situations with new HSMP applications and particularly, HSMP extensions, at present. I feel that the article is of use and the link was reasonable and of use. Spooky69 11:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that including links to your own website breaches the guidelines set out at WP:EL. Cordless Larry 16:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now I am confused. It was previously accepted that a link to an HSMP points calculator was of value to those reading the article. Are you therefore saying that I can completely re-write an article to ensure it is up to date and providing correct information, but I must link to any HSMP points calculator other than one on my website? I do not understand the logic in having again removed the link. It would also seem that the section on the MBA points provision links to a Financial Times page, whereas it really should link to the relevant page on the Home Office website. I will now go and correct this. With regard to the link to the HSMP points calculator, there are NO conditions on people using this on my website - no charge, no personal details required, no membership required - nothing. It seems odd to remove what is a popular and useful resource simply because it happens to be on my website. It is also worth noting that the points calculator on my website was the first on the internet to be updated to reflect the new rules, by which I am saying that anyone following a link to my points calculator from this article is assured of it reflecting the current situation - others on the internet took nearly a month to be updated. The link relating to conflicts of interest simply state that it should be 'avoided' but also make mention of the exception being links that would otherwise be considered as being useful - this is such a link and others here have said that it is a useful link. Or perhaps you are saying that people should not be provided with a useful link that requires nothing from the user if the provider of the article has anything to do with the site that the link points to? Are we suggesting that if I had come here and pretended to be someone else it would have been ok to leave the link there? This does seem somewhat ridiculous.Spooky69 11:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No idea why this keeps getting removed - it is not in breach of the conflict of interest guidelines and, in fact, is in the interests of the readers of the article. It seems to me that there is a determined effort being made in this area and I have now spent more time discussing this than I did writing the original article which, incidentally, updated a hopelessly incorrect and out of date original article. Others have said the link is useful and the guidelines clearly state that the exception is where the link would otherwise be deemed to be useful - they have and it is - can we just leave things alone now? Spooky69 08:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but it is in breach of the conflict of interest guidelines, which state "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it". Cordless Larry 21:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Which would be fine if it were not for the fact that the only person that seems to be taking an interest in this is yourself and you seem determined to remove the link despite your previous comment - "perhaps I was a bit over-eager in removing the link to the points calculator. Cordless Larry 23:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)". So you were "over-eager" in removing the link but continue to do so? Sorry Cordless Larry, but I am entirely confused by this. Either you agreed that the link was useful and that you were "over-eager" in removing it or you think it is of no value to the readers of the article, OR you think that a link to a points calculator would be useful as long as it was nothing to do with the person that made the effort to write the article. Which is it? Spooky69 09:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I made the comment about perhaps being over-eager before seeing the conflict of interest guidelines. To summarise my thoughts on the matter, I'm not personally convinced that the link should be there, but I'm willing to accept that others may disagree. However, you adding it is in breach of the conflict of interest guidelines, so I think the decision should be left to someone neutral. Cordless Larry 22:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so you don't particularly have a problem with the link being there just as long as I don't put it there (?!) and I assume you will not put it back there, so we wait until 2020 until someone happens to come along and thinks it is a good idea? Perhaps you could revert it to where the link was in place - if someone else then comes along and thinks that the link is of no value then that can be discussed. The problem is, if it is only the two of us sitting here with differing views then nothing will happen, which does not seem reasonable. Again, the online assessment tool is an extremely popular and free resource, very useful to those reading the article and absolutely relevant to the article - it should be there. Spooky69 08:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As harsh as it sounds, you're right: I don't think you should put the link there yourself. That's what the guidelines say, and I think it's best to stick to those. If it were up to me, the link wouldn't be there because although it's free, it is on a commercial site and could be seen as an attempt to advertise. It would be good to get another opinion, but I note that Spartaz has previously removed it as well, so it's not just me who's taken it down. Cordless Larry 14:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If you want a third party to give a view on this, how about posting it at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard? Cordless Larry 14:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:COIN response

Here's the link.

• HSMP Points Calculator

I recommend leaving it here on the talk page and waiting for uninvolved editors to evaluate it. If they decide it's worth having in the article they'll paste it there. If not, the page will eventually get archived. Best wishes. Durova^Charge! 15:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

Entire text of this page comes from one or two copyrighted publications that are found at the workingintheuk.gov website. The content seems to be entirely cut and pasted, and there is no visible permission for its use. Editing from Cordless Larry also seems to ensure that changes which are made have attributions and footnotes removed. Page should be collaborative effort that is not lorded over by one editor and attributions must be kept. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobFrancisEsq (talk • contribs) 17:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

I'm sorry - I'm confused. Are you saying I've been removing attributions? All I've been doing is periodically removing linkspam from the external links section. I've never removed references. Cordless Larry 22:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This was NOT a cut and paste job. I have been in the immigration sector for many years and I wrote that article by hand, with some parts such as earnings points tables copied from MY website, which I WROTE. It is also worth noting that the previous content was incorrect in many areas and substantially out of date. This is NOT a copyright infringement in any way whatsoever. Even aside from this, the article was an expert interpretation of PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION and NOT simply copied. I spent a lot of my time writing that article, which is an area of significant interest for a large number of people. Additionally, I do not view the link to the HSMP points calculator on my site as being linkspam - it is an extremely useful tool for people interested in this visa and does not require anything from the user - no personal details are required for the purposes of self-assessment on what was the first points calculator on the internet under the new HSMP rules. This was updated on the day of the changes being made and it should be seen as a useful resource that will always be kept up to date.Spooky69 11:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

EDIT TO THE ABOVE: It would appear that someone has over-written the article that I wrote with copied content from the Home Office. From the links contained in this, which do not go to the official UK Home Office website, I am guessing this was Cordless Larry. I have not read the article carefully as yet, but I hope that he is not providing any 'advice' or insight in the article, as he has already shown above that he does not have the knowledge to do so. No offence intended, merely an observation. So, what was wrong with the previous article that I wrote and why has it been over-written with text that does have a copyright attached? Spooky69 12:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

All this copyrighted information seems to have been introduced by a huge number of edits by an anonymous editor. Not only is this copyrighted material, it has also made the article unencyplopedic as it now reads like a guide on how to apply. I would suggest that we revert this article back to the start of Jan [1] as this is a nice encyplopedia version of the article that doesn't contain copyrighted material. johnSLADE (talk) 22:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Spooky69 - I haven't added any material to this article. No offence taken, but you should check these things using the article history before making such accusations. As I said above, all I've done is remove what I considered to be linkspam - perhaps I was a bit over-eager in removing the link to the points calculator. Cordless Larry 23:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The comments above are appreciated and possibly I was a little quick to jump. Simply put, this is a subject about which I feel strongly. And yes Cordless Larry, I should have checked thoroughly before making any comments - I should probably also have not left my previous comments there with a strikethrough. How does the article get taken back to a previous revision? Spooky69

The way to take the article back to a previous revision is to go to the article's history, and then find the version you want to revert to. Open the revision you want (by clicking on the time/date), and then hit the edit tab. Save the article without making any changes, and it will revert the article to that revision. You might want to explain what you're doing in the edit summary. Hope that helps. Cordless Larry 22:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)