Talk:Hitler Youth

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A uneditable (at least, for me) phrase is at the top of this article. The phrase being="hail hitler". I am unable to edit it. So maybe someone else can? 68.98.218.162 16:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Lemm

Contents 1 Caen 2 Boy Scouts 3 Pope and the HJ 4 Compulsory membership in 1936 or 1938? 5 HJ in the ghetto 6 Membership-Numbers 7 Flakhelfer 8 Werewolfs 9 SVG flag 10 Dubious statements 11 Organization/organized versus organisation/organised 12 Vandal protect 13 Category 14 Activities 15 Who Funded this Group? 16 Messed up layout 17 HJ members who later held senior positions 18 Possible copyright infringment? 19 Integration of the "Evangelische Jugend"

[edit] Caen

First, this article is ridiculously biased. The HJ became more military oriented only after Stalingrad. Prior to that, the organization was just like the Scouts in that it was not related to school and met outside of it. Yes they had military prep schools, but no one complains about vocational high schools that equally diminish the importance of traditional academics.

Lastly, let's not tarnish the name of these young people. The performance of the 12th SS Panzer Division was remarkable at Caen. Does no one find it worthy of an encyclopedia entry that this group of children was able to defeat an army of adults far superior in numbers? A glance at military reports from Iraq clearly shows that 18-20 year old troops of the US military hardly can hold a candle to the HJ.

[edit] Boy Scouts

I had heard that Hitler modelled the Hitler Youth organization on the Boy Scouts. Any truth to this? (I don't mean to suggested that the Boy Scouts = Hitler Youth.) --Westendgirl 18:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. -unsigned anon user

It was based on several early youth groups such as Wandervogel, but not on the Boy Scouts. Hitler hated the Boy Scouts with a vengence and was quick to outlaw them in the mid 30s, after the HJ had risen to become the leading youth group of Germany. -Husnock 15:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Truely the Hitler Youth was partially modelled on the German Scouting movement (eg the uniform). In the 1920s and the early 1930s, the Scouts, the Wandervogel and some other groups formed something like a joint movement, called the Bündische Jugend (see German Youth Movement and de:Bündische Jugend). All these groups were banned in 1933 and 1934, and their programmes were partially introduced in the HJ for some years (until 1933 the HJ was much more militaristic and part of the Sturmabteilungen). Following 1936, most remnants of Scouting were removed from the programm of the HJ.

The HJ also tried for some time becoming a member of the International Boy Scout Bureau (now World Organization of the Scout Movement. Due to the efforts of former German Scouts (and their international friends), they were not allowed to enter. --jergen 10:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pope and the HJ

It is interesting to note that the new Pope was involved with the Hitler Youth! This information came from MSN.com.

It will be also interesting for you to learn that just like Young Pioneers in Soviet Union, Hitlerjugend was compulsory organization for youth. Does it bother anyone that Sakharov, Joseph Brodsky, Vladimir Bukovsky etc. were Young Pioneers in their tender ages? Mikkalai 02:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I too agree its interesting but I do not take the offense that the user above seems to imply. It is one of the greatest ironies in history that John Ratzinger once wore the swastika on his arm, the symbol of Hitler's evil. He now wears the cross of Christ around his neck, the symbol of good. We might actually consider putting the Pope link into the article. Albeit with political correctness. -Husnock 02:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

FOLLOWUP: I added this information into the article. Also a bit of Manfred Rommel, former mayor of Stuttgart. -Husnock 02:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It does not add to the article to include "prominent members" of the Hitler Youth, in fact nearly every male born between 1918 and 1935 in Germany was a member of the Hitler Youth. To compile a list of all the prominent members would be around 100 pages long. Despite this I really think that it is indirectly POVed, implying to the reader that people like Ratzinger should be associated with Nazi institutions. Themanwithoutapast 00:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Blatant removal of an entire section because you find it distasteful is not the way to go. It actually looks a little bit like revisionism. The persons mentioned in the paragraph have all been recognized in the media as former members of the Hitler Youth and there was a large public interest in the Pope's membership. That within itself, draws attention that it should be in the article. In addition, not everyone would automatically assume compulsary membership and "figure out" that the prominent persons were in the Hitler Youth. I have restored the paragraph and will coninute to do so within the confines of the Three revert rule. A rewrite would be fine, but blanket removal of historical information is not. -Husnock 01:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

FOLLOWUP: I attempted a rewrite to emphasis that the notable figures were notable only because of world media interest. Also added a bit about the White Rose and the Swing Kids. -Husnock 01:15, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I was not intending to withhold any information from the public... I suggest an own paragraph with all the prominent members - in fact listing half of the German politicians, scientist, musicians, theologists, historians,etc. of post-War Germany (and the discussion and articles on the pope's membership actually shows how people think about a membership in the Hitler Youth -> they see it as not different than being a member of the NSDAP; therefore I uphold my remarks and think that the addition of selected members to this article is highly POVed + should be written - if at all - under a separate caption with a note that membership was compulsory for these people) Themanwithoutapast 01:13, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

FOLLOWUP: The rewrite is much better. Themanwithoutapast 01:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

---

Well, perhaps somebody should add, that many people were forced to join the hitler youth. There was no real choice as many man might think, but you were forced to join this "organisation". Especially when writing about the pope, one should add this somehow. - ... -

[edit] Compulsory membership in 1936 or 1938?

In the Membership section, it lists December 1936 as being the point at which membership became compulsory, but in the next paragraph it says it's 1938. I remember seeing 1938 on the Benedict XVI article as well. Has 1936 been confirmed as the correct date for this (are there sources)? If so, this needs to be changed in places that still use the 1938 date. At the moment I don't have time to track this down, so I was wondering if anyone else knew? -Eisnel 01:07, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1936 and 1939 are correct. First, in 1936 a bill was passed ( Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend (in German), which made membership obligatory. In 1939 an executive order was issued, which specified the bill (Erste Durchführungsverordnung zum Gesetz über die Hitler-Jugend (in German). 85.124.45.190 15:25, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] HJ in the ghetto

I read in a account of life in the Lodz Ghetto that, in a certain moment, several families of almost pure Germans (a pure German married to somebody with a remote Jewish ancestry, whose children were legally pure Germans) were transferred to the ghetto. Initially their HJ sons went around in their uniforms, attacking Jews. After two days, their families had already explained the situation to them. It doesn't fit well in the article, but I found it very interesting. --Error 00:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thats a neat story, but based on my knowledge of the era, I dont think its true. The Nuremburg Laws established that children of a German parent and a Jewish Parent were known as "persons of mixed blood in the first degree" and for all intents and purposes would have been seen as Jewish. Thus, such persons would never have been able to join a Nazi party paramilitary group. Persons who had a Jewish grandparent (no mroe than 2) were seen as "persons of mixed blood in the second degree" and these people were seen as Germans but were looked upon with suspicion. A lot of these people DID join Nazi grops, so as to prove their worth. However, in all my readings, Ive never seen a case were a persons with remote Jewish ancestry was sent to a ghetto (these were also Polish based operations for Polish Jews, not that many Germans went there). There were cases that Germans with Jewish ancestry were seen as "politcally unreliable" and sent to Concentration Camps and, yes, there were cases of former SS, SA, and HJ finding themselves in a camp. One of the board members of the Wannsee Conference was himself sent to a Concentration Camp after a falling out with his superior. So, thats my scoop on it. -Husnock 07:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Would you be able to cite the origin of the story? It would be interesting to know whether there is some substance to it, althoug I must admit Husnock is quite right in the usual circumstances. Dieter Simon 21:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was a book about photographs by Henryk Ross. That would make it Lodz Ghetto Album : Photographs by Henryk Ross ISBN 0954281373 . Besides the photos, there is some essays and Ross witnessing against Adolf Eichmann. I don't remember the exact section or who tells the story.

Later:

Ross testifying against Eichmann:

A. There were women who, according to the German racial law, were pure Aryans, but they came to the ghetto together with their Jewish husbands. According to the German racial law, the fourth generation was already exempted from being in the ghetto - they were pure Germans. There were cases where people did not even know where they were travelling to. And they even had with them children who, already of the fourth generation, were not Jews, so to say cleansed of Jewish blood.

Q. Were there also members of the "Hitler Jugend" (Hitler Youth) amongst them?

A. Yes. There were instances where the children arrived together with their parents and walked around for the first days in the uniform of the Hitler Jugend.

Q. What was the attitude of these children to the Jews of the ghetto?

A. In the first two or three days they went around in the streets singing "Hei-li, hei-la" in German, and naturally beating up the Jews. This thing continued for two or three days. Afterwards they understood, their parents explained to them that things were not good for them. They did not have anything to eat.

--Error 00:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Solomon Perel simply claimed to be "Volksdeutscher" when captured by German soldiers and later became a member of the Hitlerjugend despite being a Jew. Lars T. 21:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Membership-Numbers

The article claims "and when the Nazis came to power in 1933, the Hitler Youth held a membership of two and a quarter million." Which is at least misleading; at the end of 1932, not even a month before the Nazis came to power, they had 108,000 members. I don't know if the 2.5 million are from the end of 1933, but by then the HJ had already (more or less forcefully) been merged with several other youth organizations, including the rather big one of the "evangelische Jugend", the YO of the Evangelical_Church_in_Germany. Lars T. 20:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flakhelfer

The article only mentions the voluntary service in military HY units; the mandantory service as Luftwaffehelfer/Flakhelfer in 1943-45, which also was under shared Wehrmacht/HY control, is not referenced. (I created a stub on the Luftwaffenhelfer thing, but nothing solid yet). --HBS 00:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Werewolfs

Also, I question the phrase "served as members of Werwolf cells". I do not think "served" can be applied, not to mention that there are very few (or even none?) verifyable report about actual "werewolfs". The thing was more a last-ditch propaganda effort, than an existing corps. --HBS 00:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] SVG flag

Dear all. As per a request on my talk page, I have drawn Image:Hitlerjugend Allgemeine Flagge.svg. Enjoy. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire) Fair use policy} 01:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious statements

I'd like to see sources for both of these statements

• "The Hitler Youth child-soldiers inflicted heavy losses on the Red Army, and outperformed most other units of the Volkssturm."
• "After the defeat of Germany, some Hitler Youth served as members of Werwolf cells, continuing to resist the Allied Powers as snipers and saboteurs."

Adam 00:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

No-one having offered sources for these statements, I am deleting them. Adam 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization/organized versus organisation/organised

Once again we were having the problem of having half the article with the American spelling and half with the British spelling. Please ensure you are going to be consistent in the spellings. Have changed the latest re-spellings to wha tit was. Dieter Simon 01:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandal protect

I have semi-protected the article due to heavy vandal attakcs by anon ip users dating back to the start of March. Registered users may still edit. -Husnock 18:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the last two reverts removed a paragraph about the HJ after the war, and details about prosecutions etc. I can't pretend to be an expert on this subject, but the paragraph seemed reasonable enough to me?? see here. Was this a mistake? Camillus (talk) 18:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Looking through the article history, it does appear that the paragraph was a pretty stable entry until the recent anon IP vandalism see here so I propose restoring it, which I will do if no-one says otherwise. Camillus (talk) 19:20, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I meant to remove the vandalism not increase it SORRY!!!!! Penrithguy 16:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC) 16:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category

How about a Hitler Youth category for notable members (dozens of articles of them on wikipedia) and for the burgeoning number of subarticles? savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 09:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I created it, but its most likely incomplete. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 22:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Activities

What did the Hitler youth actually do? What sort of activities would a member undertake in? That seems like a pretty important thing to be missing from this article.

[edit] Who Funded this Group?

Where did the money for this organization come from? Where did they meet? How can we tell if this is happening now with the Battlecry groups?

Help!?

[edit] Messed up layout

The layout at the top of the page is totally messed up. (1024x768 Firefox) -- nyenyec ☎ 19:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In what way is it "totally messed up"? Do you mean the image to the left? Lars T. 16:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HJ members who later held senior positions

Would I be correct in saying that West German Presidents Walter Scheel (born 1919), Richard von Weizsäcker (born 1920), Roman Herzog (born 1934) and Johannes Rau (born 1931), and Chancellors Helmut Schmidt (born 1918) and Helmut Kohl (born 1930) were all members of the HJ? (I know Schmidt was). Can anyone confirm this? Adam 02:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyright infringment?

I realized a similarity between this Wikipedia article and an article by Michael H. Kater, "Hitler Youth" [Harvard University Press; Cambridge, Massachusetts; London, England; 2004].

The wikipedia article reads:

"Kurt Gruber, a law student and admirer of Hitler from Plauen, Saxony, home to many blue-collar workers, initiated the reconstruction of the League."

Kater's article (Chapter 2, p.15-16) reads:

"The youth group was initiated by Kurt Gruber, a law student and admirer of Hitler from Plauen in Saxony, home to many blue-collar workers."

I am new to Wikipedia, so I am unsure of what is allowed and what is not. However, I know that this seemingly uncited paraphrasing/plagiarism would be unacceptable in any college/university paper.

Smithg86 19:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Let the facts speak for themselves, Smithg86, the reason we really should allow this is that it is not direct copying, but a giving of facts. You can't tamper with facts and they remain what they are, as long as you use a separate style and not copy an article word for word. The facts that there was a law student called Kurt Gruber who also admired Hitler who came from Plauen, etc., can't really be circumvented. What else can you say about this bloke? It might be another thing if the whole episode was not important enough to warrant inclusion in an encyclopaedic article, but that's another matter. Dieter Simon 01:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Integration of the "Evangelische Jugend"

The still existing "Evangelische Jugend" (Protestant Youth) is not included in the membership number of the Hitler Youth dating from december 1933.

The contract on the integration of this organization into the Hitler Youth was signed on december 19, 1933 and became effective on march 18, 1934. [1], [2]. Thus the 600.000 members of the EJ were not members of the HJ in december 1933. --jergen 12:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The first article is rather vague and only seems to talk about a local "evangelischer Jugendverein" joining on March 18, 1934. The second doesn't even mention the "Evangelische Jugend". Now on the other hand, here are a number of sources specifically saying the EJ was incorporated into the HJ in December 1933: [3] [4] [5] [6] — last but not least [7]. There is no indication that the forced membership in the HJ was not immediate, nor that the HJ would not have count them as members at the end of 1933. Lars T. 19:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. Scientific source. --jergen 16:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)