Talk:Holy of Holies

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Contents 1 Merger with Most Holy Place 2 Merge Kadosh Hakadashim into Holy of Holies 3 Cleaning of the holy of holies 4 "Most Holy Place" is a paraphrase?

[edit] Merger with Most Holy Place

Shirahadasha (Talk | contribs) (Created as stub. Holy of Holies is unique to Judaism not same thing as the multifaith Most Holy Place)... The term "Holy of Holies" is not unique to Judaism, but is applied in other faiths and traditions. A Holy of Holies is contained within Egyptian architecture; further, in Eastern Orthodox worship, the sanctuary is referred to as a "Holy of Holies." While one could argue which influence was first [to include the Eygptians influencing the Jews], the point is that it is not a unique term owned by one religion. Perhaps a Holy of Holies (Judaism) would be a proper title for this page. Either way, the removel of the redirect of Most Holy Place to Holy of Holies is not a fair representation of the pluralistic content that should be represented.--Rojerts 22:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggest you make a merge request under the WP:MERGE policy and have the wider community discuss it. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy of Holies and Most Holy Place are not the same thing, and so I do not believe a merger should take place between the two (as was once the case). The term "Holy of Holies," as used by multiple cultures and religions, is a specific place within a sacred building--very different from a city or a geographic location. I still contend that "Holy of Holies" is not unique to Judaism, and as such, the article Holy of Holies should contain all information of those religions and cultures that have had a Holy of Holies. Rather than merge with Most Holy Place, would you consider creating a more general page for Holy of Holies, with distinct articles such as Holy of Holies-Latter-day Saints and Holy of Holies-Judaism feeding into it? I think it would be appropriate to have the main focus on the Holy of Holies within Judaism, and then allow for those who have similar features--71.38.225.133 14:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the article could be renamed using its Hebrew form, Kedosh Kedoshim, with a couple of redirects. The intention is to discuss the geographic location in the Tabernacle, Temple in Jerusalem, and current Temple Mount. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that would be best. Holy of Holies (with a Sanctum Sanctorum merge) could be restructured to begin with a general explanation such as "the innermost room of a temple--the most sacred element within a sacred space," and then have sub-sections including Kedosh Kedoshim, Holy of Holies-LDS, Temple (Orthodox Christianity), Mihrab, Hindu Temple, and Egyptian Architecture. Your thoughts?--Rojerts 03:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The most holy place in the Temple of Jerusalem is generally known in English as "Holy of Holies". Thus, this is the most appropriate title for the article about it. Beit Or 18:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Copied the following comment from Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Judaism --Shirahadasha 00:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy of Holies, definitely. If there is an English term that umambiguously refers to that subject in question then WP:NC dictates that term is to be used (e.g. Passover). The content presently on Most Holy Place (which is a hodgepodge) can be moved to Shirahadasha's new stub. JFW | T@lk 19:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course the English term for the "Kedosh Kedoshim" is Holy of Holies, yet it is also the English term for several other traditions and religions. It isn’t realistic to expect the average person to type in "Holy of Holies (Orthodox Christianity)" anymore than they would type in "Kedosh Kedoshim." Both, however, are valid and ought to be represented, and can be, through a general article that represents all aspects of Holy of Holies.

I also believe it's important to consider the context that this discussion came about. Originally, Holy of Holies had the bulk of its section about the Kedosh Kedoshim, and then had smaller sections on the Holy of Holies of other religions. At some point, the "hodgepodge" was created, with every place considered holy by anyone under one article. And so, the present Holy of Holies was created, without the merge with Most Holy Place.

I am the first to admit that in no way is it correct to call anyone's holy place the Holy of Holies, yet at the same time, if a tradition has a Holy of Holies, it is also not right to deny representing that information simply because they were not the first to have one, or their Holy of Holies is not as well known. The article on Constitutional Monarchy does not fail to mention Hawaii's former government as being a Constitutional Monarchy simply because the English were the first to come up with the concepts contained in the Magna Carta, nor should the Holy of Holies within the Eastern Orthodox and LDS traditions be left out simply because the Jews were the first to have a Holy of Holies.

Because several religions and traditions utilize the term, there ought to be a general article—-and if additional information is needed on each tradition, specific articles such as Holy of Holies-Orthodox Christianity, Holy of Holies-LDS, and Holy of Holies-Judaism can be split off of the main Holy of Holies article.--Rojerts 01:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I would also say that there really isn't a need for a Holy of Holies-Judaism if the article was returned to how it once was, with the bulk of the article on the Holy of Holies within Judaism, and the latter half of the article on other religious traditions (or "cognates").--Rojerts 01:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The place to discuss most holy places of other religions is Most Holy Place. Beit Or 20:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be a difference of opinion on whether Holy of Holies is a common noun or a proper noun. The intention here is for this article to reflect a proper noun usage, while Most Holy Place reflects the common-noun usage (and perhaps should be moved to Most holy place per Wikipedia style. Best, --Shirahadasha 21:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the issue is the difference between common and proper nouns. Because there is more than one Holy of Holies, both the common and the proper noun aspects need to be considered. There is an actual room in the Salt Lake Temple called "the" Holy of Holies, with the definite article denoting a proper noun usuage. My proposal is to create a general article that explains what "a" Holy of Holies is, and then focus on "the" Holy of Holies (plural) within different traditions. As I've said before, the proper noun Holy of Holies is not used solely within Judaism.

Further, you readily agree that Most Holy Place is not the same as the Holy of Holies. The same is true for Latter-day Saints, many of which consider their Most Holy Place to be Adam-ondi-Ahman. But Latter-day Saints also have a Holy of Holies- a specific room within the Salt Lake Temple that carries the name Holy of Holies and only this name. To deny that aspect of the article violates the Wikipedia:Five pillars: "Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view" (2nd Pillar, my emphasis).--Rojerts 00:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this article should stay, and the main text of the Jewish 'Holy of Holies' should be moved from 'Most Holy Place' to here. Do you agree? Wiki-uk 05:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I would then like to see the cognates placed below the section on the Jewish Holy of Holies.--Rojerts 02:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the merger of Most Holy Place and Holy of Holies. The first is much broader than the second; a link to eachother should, however, be included. -- Jeff3000 14:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Do not merge I agree that Most Holy Place and Holy of Holies are distinct concepts and should remain in separate articles. I agree further that Holy of Holies should be primarily an article about the inner-most rooms of the Mosaic Tabernacle, Temple of Solomon, and the Temple of Herod. I agree finally, that a small section of Holy of Holies should address the way this term is used in the contexts of other faiths with links leading to pages that address those unique occurrences (including perhaps even a Kodesh HaKodeshim entry to address more particularities of the Jewish Tabernacle/Temples). Jason Richards 22:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A merge would be a mistake. I agree completely that Most Holy Place and Holy of Holies are separate concepts, and I agree with the setup of the article as outlined in Jason Richard's comment above. In no way was my last comment endorsing a merger, but is out of context now that the content of the article is different.--Rojerts 21:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The pages should not be merged. Holy of Holies, while used by other faiths to refer to their Most Holy Place, is primarily thought of as an instance of a Most Holy Place, specifically the innermost chamber of the Tabernacle/Temple. UltraNurd 17:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not merge Holy of Holies into Most holy place - one is Jewish, the other universal. However, do merge and redirect Kodesh Hakodashim into Holy of Holies because both are Jewish, and redundant. YechielMan 22:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In its current incarnation, the Holy of Holies article is universal, and there is nothing specifically Jewish about it. Specifically Jewish content is currently in Kadosh Hakadashim --Shirahadasha 02:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Kadosh Hakadashim into Holy of Holies

These are the exact same thing and do not merit multiple articles. Also the pronounciation of Kadosh Kadoshim is not universal (Kadosh HaKodashim is the term used in the Bible. Valley2city 16:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

As discussed in the section above on whether to merge Holy of Holies with Most Holy Place, they are totally different things. Holy of Holies, in its current form, is a common noun representing, as the article indicates, a generic term for "the most sacred place within a sacred building." in a variety of religions. Kadosh Kadoshim is a proper noun representing a specific location in the Tabernacle, Temple in Jerusalem, and current Temple Mount -- that is, it's selected precisely because it is the specific term used in the Bible, not a generic term. There is more than enough material to devote an article specifically to the place holy to Judaism, and it's perfectly logical to have an article on this subject given its high notability and verifiabilty and the amount of detail available to be said about it. Given that both the current Holy of Holies article and Most Holy Place are intended to be generic, then perhaps this merge should occur and there should be one generic article rather than two. I would suggest that the single generic article have summaries and links to specific articles on the different religions and sites as they are developed and split off. Editors are welcome to develop individual articles on the sites holy to Latter-Day Saints, Bahai, and other traditions to be linked into the main article. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to renaming the pronunciation. It is Kadosh HaKadashim in Mishnah Yoma 5:2. --Shirahadasha 06:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Renamed article to Kadosh Hakadashim. --Shirahadasha 01:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether to name Kadosh Kadoshim that or something else is distinct from whether it should be merged or not (in general, we have some serious style inconsistencies with how articles with hebrew names are titled, but that's incidental). Shriahadasha's suggestion above seems to make a lot of sense. I would be surprised if we didn't have more than enough sources to flesh out Kadosh Kadoshim as well as the major holy sites of the LDS or other religions as well. JoshuaZ 00:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Given the article Holy of Holies (LDS), another alternative would be to move the article to Holy of Holies (Judaism) and move the content on other religions either to their own articles or to Most Holy Place. This alternative was, however, opposed by a number of editors in an earlier discussion. --Shirahadasha 06:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Per above, spun off most content to Kadosh Hakadashim article and left summary (and "Main" link) in Judaism section. This way Judaism section ends up comparable to other religions and gets its own article since there is an article's worth of content (like Holy of Holies (LDS). Best, --Shirahadasha 23:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning of the holy of holies

I think the topic of the cleaning, repairing, and repainting of the Holy of Holies is important because it was the only time that someone other than the High Priest on Yom Kippur went in. It also was not through the traditional entrance that the handyman would go through to get there and he would never touch the floor. Anyone with more information on this? Valley2city 17:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that they also used additional curtains to veil the worker from the sacred artifacts in the room, so that only the section of wall under refurbishment was visible to the worker, and he was veiled from the presence of the Lord. But I have no idea where that would be documented in a Secondary_source. The tradition I'm referring to also held that a replica of the walls was maintained on the upper floor so that the worker could use it as a reference in his work. Jason Richards 22:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Most Holy Place" is a paraphrase?

The construction "Holy of Holies" is a literal translation of a Hebrew idiom. Rendering it as "Most Holy Place" (as the KJV does) may not preserve its full meaning. The NASB's rendering is more literal; but the reader has to both recognize and decipher the idiom.

Comparable to:

     Eccl 1:2 -- Vanity of vanities ...
     Sol 1:1 -- The song of songs, which is Solomon's.

The KJV translated the idiom literally in those cases.

Also in Greek:

     Rev 17:14 ... Lord of lords, and King of kings

References:

• http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush_excerpts/brush_20051025.shtml
• http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush_excerpts/brush_20060117.shtml
• _Unger's Bible Dictionary_: page 178, Article on "Canticles", section on "The Name".

Ac44ck 17:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)