Talk:Human Development Index

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Heres a Question, if the index was developped in 1990, how was this Index Calculated from 1980 to 1990 ? Perhaps someone could explain it? Ghilz 19:36, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

Presumably because the index is just a collection of weighted figures, and these figures were available in previous year. I'd say that these years were calculated retrospectivly. X

QUESTION ON INDEX

Does the index measure for the distribution of income?

Such as Gini-coefficient, etc ?

[edit] Minor vandalism

141.149.176.238 deleted the USA from the stats of top 3 & bottom 3 countries of North America. Minor, but it should be noted. --Sarah 23:15, 27 Jan 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I need HDI from 1990-2004

I've already checked the UNDP website I can't find the HDI values for 1990-2003.

I have already found some years' values (1998,1999,2001,2002) but not all. Can someone please help me with this?

Re: Locating HDI numbers

For the above and anyone else interested, there are numbers for the HDI going back until 1990, excluding 1991 and 1996 -- I have no idea why there are no numbers for those years. You can also get retroactively calculated numbers at five year intervals back until 1975 for many countries. The bad news is that you'll need to extract these numbers from the Human Development Global Reports, located on the UNHDR site.

These may be found here.

I cannot seem to find the actual indices for 2000 and earlier. --Baryonic Being 11:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Erm... Nigeria is not a Latin American country (or am I reading it wrong?)

Someone trying to put Nicaragua, evidently, which is the 118th nation in the list.

[edit] Top 50; bottom 15

Can I ask what's wrong with having more than the top 30 and more than the bottom 10? If you want to keep it as a 'summary', and you don't want it to become a full listing, then surely it should be balanced out at something like top 20 and bottom 20? --Baryonic Being 09:57, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

It needlessly bloats the article. Plus, having the top 30 is to compare it with the approximately 30 developed countries referenced. —Cantus…☎ 10:42, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

That's fine. I knew there'd be a good reason. --Baryonic Being 10:53, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Nevertheless, we could make another article such as List of countries by Human Development Index, (or List of countries by HDI), since there's already a List of countries by income equality. -Mariano 08:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Bloats the article? I disagree, the article is pretty short to begin with. Having a top 30 and bottom 10 is just too arbitrary... it makes more sense to have the whole 177. Coffee 21:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello! Personally, I think it prudent to include only the top and bottom 10 countries; having an 'endless' list' detracts from what is an already concise article. Thus, I curtailed the top list present ... but: I created a complete list of countries, colour-coded map and legend. Whatyathink? Enjoy! E Pluribus Anthony 09:05, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UNITED KINGDOM / Ireland

In the top 30 list, UK is listed at 12 and Ireland at 10, but in the top/bottom 3 lists by continent, the UK is listed in place of Ireland and indicated to be at position 8. One of these must be wrong, though I don't know which. (Actually looking at it now, I guess neither should be listed since either is actually in place 4 and should not be in a top 3 list)

[edit] VOTE!! - HDI in Infobox#Countries|country infobox/template?

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a standard UN measure/rank of how developed a country is or is not. It is a composite index based on GDP per capita (PPP), literacy, life expectancy, and school enrollment. However, as it is a composite index/rank, some may challenge its usefulness or applicability as information.

Thus, the following question is put to a vote:

Should any, some, or all of the following be included in the Wikipedia Infobox#Countries|country infobox/template:

(1) Human Development Index (HDI) for applicable countries, with year;

(2) Rank of country’s HDI;

(3) Category of country’s HDI (high, medium, or low)?

YES / NO / UNDECIDED/ABSTAIN - vote here

Thanks!

E Pluribus Anthony 01:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adult Literacy Index

The equation to get ADI on the page says " (ADR - 0)/(100 - 0) ". Are the zeroes not a bit redundant? Batmanand 07:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi; I think you're right! The 0s would appear to be redundant for the ADI and, as well, Gross Enrollment Index (GEI). I'll edit this, if there are no objections ... E Pluribus Anthony 08:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi again! Upon second glance at the UN HDI 2005 technical notes; p. 341 et al.; the 'extra' zeroes – while apprently redundant – are included in the formulae/examples used; thus, the 0s should stay and the changes have been reverted (thanks, Cantus!). There you go! E Pluribus Anthony 22:33, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Fine if they are meant to be there then they should stay. Just seemed odd to me on first reading... Batmanand 11:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The zeros are there because the general formula used to make the index fit in the 0,1 range is Xindex=(X-MinX)/(MaxX-MinX), where X is the relevant characteristic, MinX is the minimum value X can take on, MaxX is the maximum value the variable can be (i.e. they can change over time). Same reason why that log(40000)-log(100) is there.radek 23:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

There's been some edits removing the zeros or rewriting the 85-25 as 60. I understand why - perhaps a note about how raw numbers are transformed into a (0,1) index should be put into the article. See my comment above. If there's no objections I will add it in.radek 23:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know how the Adult Literacy Rate is calculated for countries who's census does not track Adult Literacy, like the US?

[edit] Criticism

Should we not insert a pro and cons or criticism section? Like why the index does not use the gini coefficient... I don't know much about it but that the kind of stuff I had liked to learn. PierreWiki 4:44, Oct 1, 2005 (UTC)

Hello! Forgive my tardiness in responding (this question has been on my radar since it was posed). I would support including a critical section regarding the HDI, so long as criticisms are from citable sources. If the vote to include the HDI in the country infobox is any indication, many users may have bias towards or against this measure of human development. Thoughts? E Pluribus Anthony 01:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The lack of reflexion in this article is remarkable. Responses, interpretations, criticism, alternatives, cultural and political significance will have to be covered in order for it to become comprehensive. 16 January 2006

Anyone can criticise anything. The point: it isn't problematic to include criticism in the Wp article if it is sourced and can be verified. Unfortunately, the recent addition was neither. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bottom 10

May I ask why Chad is in the bottom ten twice? — Iggy Koopa 20:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East Timor

East Timor does not have a HDI of 18, it has one of 0.513 (140th) – medium according to its wiki page.

[edit] scale instead of a mere ranking

A graphic showing the huge disparities would be more informative than a ranking.

[edit] Distribution of HDI values

Out of the history of this article, I noticed that some editors would like to pay some attention to the distribution of the HDI values (how often do certain HDI values occur/how many countries have a higher/lower HDI value then…etc.). Textual it was ones included in the article as follows:

In the first 21 positions there is a gradual drop from 0,936 to 0,928, followed by a somewhat faster drop to 0,878 for position 30 and another gradual drop to 0,720 at position 107. After that, there is an intermittent rapid drop to 0,281 at the lowest position of 177. Note that until position 107 there is an average drop of about 0,002 points per position. Below that the drop is much higher at 0,007 per position.

With a request to make a graph to ‘illustrate the point’, which could look like this:

Does any of this contribute something to this article, or maybe in List of countries by Human Development Index, or doesn’t it add much, and we should keep it out of the article? Any thoughts? --Van helsing 09:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have nixed both the text and the graph; however, the former is an original analysis without cited basis (no matter how well-intentioned or routed it is in mere statistics), and the latter is unclear (e.g., what do the green bars to the right represent?) and not very informative. Such information might be useful if sources are cited and we can verify relevant content. Until then ... E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 11:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay. The green bars are called a histogram (occurrence of HDI values with respect to each other, 3 peaks visible). The chart is based on the Excel data linked on the Human Developments Reports website [1]. If the chart is unclear, would you have suggestions for improvement? --Van helsing 15:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I know what the bars are called, but it is wholly unclear what they represent. Labels would help, but they would do little to increase the utility of this graph. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

If the purpose of this chart is not obvious enough for the reader, then I think you’re right that the article would not benefit from its inclusion. --Van helsing 14:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Vatican City?

Can anyone provide an estimation of the Vatican City's HDI? -- Toytoy 08:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Why would Vatican City (The Holy See) be included? It isn't a member state of the United Nations, it is only an observer. Mattrix18 19:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

What is link to the misleadingly named Freedom House, a US-based CIA joint dealing in propaganda and promotion of "US interests" doing on a page with a claim to any objectivity? What does Freedom House have to do with Human Development Index?

[edit] Iceland

Why isn't Iceland listed on the top 30 countries if it is #2 according to the top/bottom three countries by region section? MissingNo 22:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

... ehm... It actually is? I suggest new or stronger glasses/contact lenses. ;) —Nightst a llion (?) 20:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't when I posted this - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Human_Development_Index&oldid=57862295 MissingNo 18:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, sorry. Just regular run-of-the-mill vandalism, then. —Nightst a llion (?) 22:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Israel:

Someone needs to decide what continent israel is in... seriously... it can't be both Africa and Asia... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.102.142.220 (talk • contribs) 23:00, June 25, 2006 (UTC)

Israel is in Asia.Mattrix18 19:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The entry for Israel in the Africa top 3 is clearly a mistake. It should be Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (58) in that position. I don't know how to fix it properly as I'm new!

[edit] Top/bottom three countries for asia

Obviously, that means there should be six asian countries listed, why do I see seven? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.96.102.166 (talk • contribs) .

Because this is one article that is being affected by a pro-Taiwan edit warrior. Thanks for spotting it. Andjam 00:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 DHI is wrong here

The version on spanish has the real ranking... the version here on english is raelly wrong. Argentina is listed 107, but on the document from the ONU Argentina is listed 34. Here Brasil 34, but Brasil is really 63!

Thanks. PS: I dont change it, because i dont know how... PS2: I've fixed it... Argentina is back on 34 and fixed the positions for Guyana y Bolivia, there were mixed.

[edit] Patriotism

It seems as if a lot of people are trying to change things in this article based on patriotic passions, rather than what the figures really are. Yes, it must be embarrassing to have a nation outside the top 30, but the facts are the facts. Perhaps rather than trying to insert point-of-view arguments, one should instead go and visit some of the top 30 nations to see why they really are in the top 30. Mattrix18 19:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan(ROC) may be taken into consideration of the top 30 countries, but we should'nt distrub the orgional fact of ranking ....Yaoyu

Yeah, and it looks like some Dane has chosen to move his country to 1st place, and move Norway down to 15th, I've fixed it though. I thought the Scandinavians all stuck together or at least thats what Eurovision taught me.

[edit] Wrong Index

I was who fixed it before today, but it has benn changed wrongly again. So i registered for 1st time here on Wikipedia to help to provide correct data (sorry, my english isnt really good).

The index for Sudamerica is worng, the complete info is available at: http://hdr.undp.org/ and the Ranking at: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_HDI.pdf

This is the real info: 34-Argentina 0.863 63-Brasil 0.792 107-Guyana 0.720 113-Bolivia 0.687

I hope you will correct this. pdrpdr 20:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GNP or GDP

For the part about income the Wiki states that UNDP uses GNPpc ppp. I however remember that our lecturers told us they use GDPpc ppp and on UNDP sites they mention GDP as well. For instance in the footnote for Luxembourg's income per capita on this page. Besides that it says GDP in the text above as well.

the letest news is that

[edit] GDP Index

Can someone explain to me the GDP Index. I dont understand how to use it :S

What's to explain? You plug in a country's GDP per capita into the formula. It's just a standardization to transform a number that can range from 0 to infinity to an index that ranges from 0 to 1.radek 21:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh thanks that really helped. not. just give me an example of how to do it. like take one country's GDP per capita and show me an example

Umm, dude, if you want help then learn some manners. And it's not that hard. Figure it out yer own self.radek 02:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Uhh dude, im 13. not a straight A student in UNI!

Manners would still help.

Fine then. Can you please show me an example of how to use the GDP Index? I don't understand it.

[edit] STILL CONFUSING GRAPHIC

What is the YEAR to which this graphic refers, and has it been corrected following previous comments? The graph should have a caption indicating the year.--Mack2 12:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, this image is incompatible with red-green colorblindness. Consider using texture/pattern and colors of different luminance 04:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello! The year of the graphic reflects the year of the index (2004) which appeared in this year's UN HDR report (2006); last year's was similar. Beforehand, I also mixed this up.

From what I gather, the colour scheme that was adopted to help identify countries with high, medium, and low HDIs (red, yellow, green) was intended to be a logical one that harks of those used in a stop light. The colours are also used in each of the country infoboxes, and many of the maps in Wikipedia use similar colour schemes. There appears to be little discussion regarding colourblind-friendliness, though; I believe the current scheme works as is and, given the above, a texture/pattern would not. Perhaps (if necessary) an alternate map can be created, but I think the main maps should remain as is. Psychlopaedist 09:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have altered the maps so that they are distinguishable by people with red-green colour vision deficiency such as myself. Note that traffic lights are only distinguishable to colour-blind people because the lamps are Top-Middle-Bottom, not because they are red/yellow/green, so any defence of traffic light colours is only relevent if the colours have a defined fixed position, which in this map's context they do not. Red-green colour vision deficiency affects up to 1 in 12 Europid Caucasian ("white european") males, whereas blue-types of colour vision deficiency affects less than 1 in a million people. Therefore I have re-coloured the map to use a Blue / Yellow / Other scheme, as I do not believe the graphic is large enough to allow detail to be distinguishable by textures or luminance alone. For more information see colour blindness. The issue of the possibly incorrect year label on the top map is still to be addressed. Andrew Oakley 10:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 Stats are OUT

edit soon?

http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/4150/ra1on6.jpg http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/4150/ra1on6.jpg http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/4150/ra1on6.jpg http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/4150/ra1on6.jpg

not yet released online, but in magazine form

[edit] Slovakia?

As Slovakia is a member nation of prominence within the European Union, I find it strange that Slovakia is not on this index as well. In addition, the map designates Slovakia as a nation with medium HDI. However, if you looked at Slovakia's Policy Statement of the Government of the Slovak Republic (no direct linking allowed, search on Google, sorry), you would see that Slovakia doesn't have things such as human rights violations or poor people dying on the street due to malnutrition, etc etc. Therefore Slovakia should not be colored yellow on that map. Does anyone see this too? --neilthecellist 18:12, 8 November 2006

Slovakia pops up in List of countries by Human Development Index at number 42 overall. It's not in the list in this particular article because it's not in either the top or bottom three countries in Europe. Also, I don't think Slovakia is colored yellow on the map... it seems to be pretty green to me. Am I looking at the wrong country? --Zonath^Yak 06:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe my knowledge of European geography fails me. I've taken Advanced Placement European History but... I'm pretty sure Slovakia is yellow colored on this one, or perhaps I'm wrong... doubts are in my head now.... neilthecellist 20:43 9 December 2006 GMT -8 hours (Pacific Time)

Slovakia is directly south of Poland, and appears to be green on the map. --Zonath^Yak 07:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Slovakia is definitely coloured green on the map. All of the EU member states, including Romania and Bulgaria, have high human development and are hence coloured green.

Ronline ✉ 08:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I see you used a map with data from 2005? Why not use data from 2006? What I find odd is that Montenegro is included on that map, although it did not exist in 2005. --Danutz

Ok, I confirmed, you guys were right, the republic of Slovakia is not where I thought it was. But in any case, is this map really outdated? --neilthecellist

[edit] Spam

It would seem as though someone has spammed on this actual page, i will attempt to delete it Yakshavings

[edit] 69.236.xx.xx

I believe there's a misunderstanding. I'm looking at the latest report right now and what you're adding doesn't agree with it at all.

[2]

[3] (pdf)

-- ran (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the latest figures for the Republic of China and for Macau SAR are from the year 2003. Please do not rank them together with the figures from 2004, which are given in this article.

Please don't lengthen the top-30 list any more, we have a List of countries by Human Development Index article that lists all of the countries.

Finally, please note that South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, and Singapore are considered developed countries / territories. -- ran (talk) 03:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you want to add the figures, please don't remove the arrows and rank changes.. -- ran (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

69.236.xx.xx: Okay, this has got to be the fourth, fifth time I've asked you to come to here and discuss your changes. I don't agree with your changes and I've given my reasons, yet you refuse to discuss. Instead, you keep on reverting to your old version with no reasons given at all.

Please, come here and discuss. It's a crucial part of contributing to Wikipedia.

-- ran (talk) 21:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Your report doesn't show the HDI points of the countries and only shows the arrows and bars,how is anybody suppose to know the HDI points without going to another page?!I suggest that you also place the HDI points in the ranks as well,plus I have checked the UN website and edited my mistakes,and yet you still confirm that I'm wrong!--69.236.xx.xx

Don't delete the comments of other people.

I've already put the points in for you. But don't remove the rankings. The List of Countries doesn't give ranking changes; this is the ONLY article where ranking changes are given. When you remove them, you are removing information from all of Wikipedia. -- ran (talk) 21:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I know you've re-checked the UN figures, and I can see that you're not putting the wrong figures anymore. However, please also take note of my other points, including what I said about:

not expanding the list on this page
not adding rankings for Taiwan and Macau based on misaligned years
and not changing the phrasing in the part about developed and developing countries.

f you disagree with anything I said, please raise it here, don't just ignore my attempts to discuss. -- ran (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Azerbaijan not in Europe

There's an inconsistency in the top of countries with the lowest index by continent. Azerbaijan is listed as being in Europe, altough this map of Asia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationAsia.png (compare with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_location_AZN2.png) and what I remember from geography class clearly say it's not. (Sorry for the messy links, I don't know my way around editing wiki well enough yet). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.226.7.11 (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Do we need these lists?

Hello, I've just finsished adding these nice tags to the article, (use of colour = good article) but do we actually need these lists? I'm sure there's something about Wikipedia not being an indiscriminate publisher of data (whatever). After all, there is already an article dedicated to the rankings. Deepdreamer 17:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree - I say get rid of it and make the link to the page devoted to ranking more prominent. Nom DeGuerre 14:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] puerto rico not included?

It's part of the USA and covered by the census, no? Potatoswatter 03:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the US census typically treats puerto rico separately, And the UN does not collect data from Puerto Rico. I will research this. I believe it should be noted as one of the countries not represented in HDI.Mad05963 06:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thx for the research... can you provide a ref? Potatoswatter 06:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the http://hdr.undp.org/ UN Development Program (UNDP) which is basically the official ranking body for HDI, Puerto Rico does not report statistics to it, and ranking/calculation of HDI is only done for special reports, see earthwatch UNEP http://islands.unep.ch/CSV.htm Also see UNEP Globalis http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/country.cfm?country=PR&indicatorid=0 notice the absence of Puerto Rico statistics. Looking at the census page (anyone else think the census website is confusing?) The census maintains separate statistics just for puerto rico and repeatedly notifies when the stats from Puerto Rico are included in a report or if they are not one example is this page of the US Census looking into the Hispanic Population, notice the disclaimer that it does not include information from Puerto Rico, only Hispanics in the United States. http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hispanic.html I'm not sure if any of this helps.Mad05963 00:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

So, what matters is whether the US includes PR in the statistics relevant to HDI which get reported to the UN. PR isn't going to interact with the UN no matter what, because they're 100% under the auspices of the US. According to the Census FAQ, the CDC computes life expectancy - but that's just life expectancy. I ran out of attention span before finding a definitive answer, but all in all, it would be dishonest to leave out 3 million people certainly under the sovereign governance (including census and CDC, whether stats are separate or not) of the US, and the UN should disapprove of such... any government could conveniently exclude anyone. PR isn't particularly underdeveloped anyway. Potatoswatter 00:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. In fact I think the different figures i did find for HDI would place Puerto Rico pretty high, though they were all outdated. According to this wikipedia article (List of countries by Human Development Index) Puerto Rico's HDI is .942 for 1998 ,but I don't know any references for that statistic. Actually the best Reference would actually seem to be the UN's Earthwatch page which has the same statistic dated 1998. Again I would like to see Puerto Rico added to the list and ranked, but if this is the best figure we have, its almost 10 years old. To rank Puerto Rico we need a 2007 HDI, which the UN doesn't apparently have. Do you have a suggestion on how to fix this?Mad05963 05:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate Data in Tables

Most of the 'top 30' table is wrong. For example, Switzerland is listed as top but is actually 9th. See http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/indicators/1.html Why? Nom DeGuerre 14:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nagorno-karabakh

Can we include Nagorno-karabakh in countries not included?

The UN includes that nation within Azerbaijan. Unless Azerbaijan excludes the whole region from their census and economic statistics, there's no reason to say it's not counted. Potatoswatter 09:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HDI Map

Why don't we use the colour-blind compliant map instead of the default one? I can't edit it unless I create an account 80.177.165.204 15:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why there is no Poland on the list?

--81.26.0.21 11:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The article only lists the top 30 countries in the world. Poland's 37. To get the full ranking you have to clink on the provided link.radek 20:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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