Talk:Hydrostatic shock
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So if the bullet lodges in a person’s body, does the shock wave still do as much damage as if the bullet passes through the body?
- Since the shock wave does precisely zero damage, yes. The shockwaves of being shot with an anti-aircraft gun with several thousands of rounds per day, over a period of years, may cause some slight loss of innervation and circulation to the kidneys, but that is all. -Arrkhal 00:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does the article link to a page that contains simply a copy of it, crediting Wikipedia? Seems kind of pointless. --Vadim
Perhaps someone with medical training could elaborate? --Anders Törlind
I found a few web pages that contend the hydrostatic shock effect of bullet penetration; that is they do not believe that bullets damage humans in this way. No real science or pathology either way though. --drj
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[edit] Merge?
Discussion on whether to merge this article with stopping power:
- No - Hydrostatic shock, while closely associated with stopping power, is a concept in its own right, and merging it would make stopping power a bit of an omnibus article. --Orborde 22:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
- I meant merge the section on hydrostatic shock from stopping power to here, not vice-versa. ··gracefool |☺ 06:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
- No - Even with this new information regarding the original intention of merging, the article stopping power needs some sort of summary. Although some of the information in stopping power could be merged, bullets have special regard to hydrostatic shock, and that information should be kept in the article stopping power. --DarthFredd
- No - Hydrostatic shock is extra wounding caused by the shock waves inside the body, caused by the passage of the bullet. Any scientific evidence I've read suggests that Stopping Power (the damage that puts a target down) is loss of blood, nerve function and shock. --Eon
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- Okay, I've removed the merge templates. ··gracefool |☺ 23:55, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Can anymore evidence be cited in this topic? I have personal experiances that would suggest to me the validity of the workings of hydrostatic shock, though it takes a round of considerably higher velocity then anything that can be fired from a handgun. Try instead a 200 grain round from a .30-378 Weatherby traveling at around 3,400 fps. I have personally seen this combination drop deer and larger size animals instantly, even when no wounds were inflicted that should have been immediatly fatal. I'm not saying one way or another if the subject in question is a valid idea, however if someone knows of some more evidence it would be nice to see it.
- Blunt trauma to the spinal cord due to temporary cavity. Damage inflicted by the temporary cavity is limited to stretching damage, and blunt trauma. The blunt trauma component can extend for a couple inches around the temporary cavity due to tissue compression. If this "wave" of compression hits the spinal cord, it can cause instant unconsciousness, exactly like a "rabbit punch." Arrkhal 01:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, but what about the exist wounds. I think hydrostactic may be a misnomer but parts of the body have a resonance.
[edit] Baloney
Who ever says that hydrostatic shock has been dis-proven is full of bologna. This is only true for wounds caused by small caliber low velocity nonexpanding bullets. These wounds are refered to in medical literature as an "ice pick wound". Wounds caused by high velocity big bore expanding bullets resemble an explosion. There is tremendous tissue damage far from the axis if bullet penetration. Those supposed idiots that write for gun magazines know exactly what they're talking about. They have seen the effects of these weapons many times on the bodies of big game animals.
204.227.223.74 21:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Tlaloc
- {sigh}. Another person who either didn't read or didn't comprehend the article. Go read stopping power as many times as it takes to understand what's written there, and get back to me. Arrkhal 22:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Tissue does behave similarly enough to water that a sonic pressure wave can be created by a bullet impact, generating pressures in excess of 100 atmospheres. However, a device known as the lithotriptor, commonly used to break up kidney stones, produces sonic pressure waves of approximately 5 times the amplitude of those caused by bullets. Up to 2000 such pressure waves are used in a single treatment session, with no damage to soft tissues whatsoever." - This comparison is ludicrous.
A lithotriptor prodcues tiny, highly focused waves from a small emitter. A 5.56mm bullet travelling at over 900 m/s results in a near-instananeous energy transfer in the order of 1800 joules, nothing like what a lithotriptor can generate. And since it's a broad spectrum physical impact, the affected tissues, because the shock waves generated are of far lower frequency than those produced by an ultrasonic instrument, are wrenched back and forth over a much greater distance by the pressure wave. It is usually localised by the shock absorbing affects of tissue, and therefore does not merit much discussion, however, in an area such as the brain, the pressure waves generated cannot dissipate, and cause severe damage as the brain tissue is compressed against the hard cranium. As a footnote, lithtriptors have been known to cause renal capillary damage, among other problems, which can lead to renal failure.
Dallas 01:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Incompressible fluid
I have a problem with the statement: "The claim that tissue behaves like water is obviously false. Water is an incompressible fluid, while tissue is a compressible solid." First of all, nothing in science is obvious, and the first sentence could be changed into "evidence shows that..." or sth like that. No one claims that tissue behaves like water all the time, but that they can have similar behaviours under some circumstances. Then, saying that water is incompressible is simply wrong. Nothing is incompressible. If water really was, the oceanic level would be roughly 30m higher than it is now, there would be no shock wave in water, and the speed of sound in it would be infinite (later the article correctly quotes the speed 1500 m/s). "less compressible than tissue" would be more appropriate. Finally, I'm not sure that opposing tissue as a solid to water is relevent either. Water is a liquid for most applications, but when very quick phenomena are studied, like the penetration of a bullet, it can behave similarly to a solid. In the end, I think a sentence like "Experiments show that tissue and water behave differently, because they have different compressibility values" would be better. Chacal 00:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Should Be Designated Stub
I think this article should be flagged as a stub or something until someone can take the time to properly edit it. Several sound contentions are listed above, and the article doesn't make any distinction between high-powered rifle rounds and handgun rounds. It's just silly. No personal offense, but it reads as if some gradeschooler tried to pontificate on a random subject.
[edit] Tone
"The claim that tissue behaves like water is obviously false..." That entire line (if not section) has POV and tone issues. I think it should be deleted/rewritten.
