Talk:Ian Smith

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/Archive 2005 - discussion on Ian Smith article over 6 months old.

Contents 1 Scientology Connection 2 Value judgments 3 Commentary / Opinion 4 Attempt by to impose his politics on this article 5 More bias 6 Postnominal letters "ID"

[edit] Scientology Connection

There is no mention of Ian Smith's connection to L. Ron Hubbard, it is mentioned in Hubbard's bio that he went to Rhodesia to hide from media attention and that he floated large sums of money into the Rhodesian economy when it was hit by UN-Sanctions. But there is no mention of this in the Ian Smith article. 00:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

A quick internet search indicates that Hubbard entered Rhodesia in March 1966 with a 3 month visa. In July 1966, the Rhodesian authorities refused to renew his visa and asked him to leave the country.BScar23625 08:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Value judgments

Tim. This article contains value judgements such as "Smith acted in a manner that may have shown poor judgement." Such comments add no information so it can only be bias. "A significant number of white Rhodesians were uneasy about UDI." this may or may not be true so what evidence is there - an opinion poll or a few newspaper articles? The attitude after it happened changed too - in what way do you think and would it support the "opinion of the article"? If one is to be even handed about this, I think it's worth considering the fate that befell all the other former colonies and what has since befallen Zimbabwe and ask if Smith was more of a realist than his critics in the west and than those who supported the guerillas. "Most observers now appreciate that Smith was engaged in the stubborn defence of a colonial system that the 20th century has left behind." This claim is very much less likely now as it is considerably more difficult to criticise the "colonial system" given the example of the system that has replaced it - this judgement is itself out of date. It is not politically correct to say that colonial rule was better but a "significant" number of people think it.:-) 206.165.101.124 13:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

206.165.101.124 Who is Tim?. Tell me, do you believe that African nations are all "communist banana republics that bankrupted their treasuries while expelling their White and Asian settlers"? Bob BScar23625 18:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me try another one on you. Do you believe that granting independence to India in 1947 was a big mistake?. Just look at the wars, riots, famines and corruption that there have been in India since then. BobBScar23625 16:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Tim. Pointless question about who I am and how would anyone verify it anyhow? I am a Zimbabwean. India is an irrelevance brought in to muddy the waters. It certainly is completely clear what has happened to Zimbabwe - don't you think? Who was more realistic about that - Smith or Wilson?

Tim. Yes it is clear what happened in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. UDI created a political vacuum which the Mugabe regime filled. To say nothing of the war. Something of the sort was predicted by Wilson in the 1960s. Wilson was more realistic than Smith. But I am sure that the country will turn the corner in the next 5 years, or so. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 05:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

ps. The pro-Rhodesian Beckett account of the war ends with the following statement : "The legacy of the war was a newly-independent state beset by economic and social problems, not least the rivalries of the nationalists that the war had stimulated and left unresolved". That is an assessment I go along with. Many of the country's problems originated in the UDI era. BScar23625 05:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Tim. Pro Rhodesians wish to believe that it was ok for them to leave after independence and that there was nothing, after that point, which they could do - it's their excuse for "bugging out" and I understand it although I feel that it's shameful. This argument about power vacuums can simply be contrasted against what happened, for example, in other African former colonies - did Ghana escape dictatorship? What about the Congo or any of the former French colonies or Angola? Allowing these less-than-half-completed systems of government to be wiped out *is* the "fault" of the colonial powers and was entirely predictable at the moment they decided to do it - perhaps the problems stem from that decision?

Tim. I think we have touched on this area in our discussion of Whites in Zimbabwe. A lot of Rhodesian whites were expats. with foreign passports. They moved on quickly after independence, but many whites did stay on. Independence was inevitable and a lot of the new countries had early problems. Trying to extend the colonial era in both Algeria and Rhodesia showed that this was no solution to those problems. I take a positive view. Many of the new nations are now turning the corner and are making progress in economic, social and political terms. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 08:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Tim: This article is about Ian Smith - not whites in Zimbabwe. I suggest that we try and restrict it to verifiable facts and leave out the judgements.

Tim. Yes, but Ian Smith and Whites in Zimbabwe are intertwined topics. I guess there are judgemental elements in the Ian Smith article and you may wish to propose corrections. But, as you know, this article attracts a lot of attention. So, I suggest you propose specific changes on this Discussion page and see if they attract consensus support. If you make unilateral changes to the main article then .... . One's experience of Wikipedia is much happier if one is willing to engage with fellow Wikipedians. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 19:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC) Tim: This is pompous. I have suggested changes before you even looked at this page - you removed those old discussions. In fact you are the one who operates without consent.

Tim. Good to see you back again, and I hope you are keeping well. Some older discussion has been moved to the archive page, but it is still accessible there. That move was just routine housekeeping. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 15:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commentary / Opinion

A large degree of commentary and opinion is scattered throughout the article. This is quite innappropriate given that Wikipedia articles are expected to comply with a neutral point-of-view. I have deleted it. michael ^talk 14:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael. You used to define yourself as “an eighteen year old Australian Christian”. Consider the following :

• When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Dr Martin Luther King (28 August 1963) I have a dream

What comment do you feel that offers on Rhodesia?. Most Christian denominations (including the Dutch Reformed Church) recognise that racism is a fundamental evil. Any person who promotes racism, by deed, word or thought, is committing a mortal sin. Do you perceive any link between this observation and the political career of Ian Smith?.

As an aside, Ian Smith’s son Alec understood the point well. I am genuinely interested to hear your views. Best wishes. Bob BScar23625 15:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not an apologetic for Smith's regime, nor do I condone racism. What I do condone, however, is unrequired commentary in a Wikipedia article. I'm probably very right to assume that you have a much greater and far-reaching background knowledge than myself when it comes to 'Smithy' and Rhodesia, and, taking this into account, I'm obliged to respect it.

However, the issue at hand is the writing of a Wikipedia article. Surely, things such as:

"It was evident from the mid 1950s that the white settlers would put up a fight to retain control of Rhodesia. Smith was the central figure in that fight."

are nothing more than a on-the-fly commentary, predicting the future and throwing Smith into the drivers seat. The article, under your tenure, has amounted to such that it dismissed UDI, in the words of the Guardian, as a "bit of a lark", and paints a picture of Smith lonely defending an antiquated colonial system.

I certainly don't want to come off as brash or rude, but surely there are better ways to improve the article than this kind of text, which borrows heavily from your views and fails neutrality. Even when you responded to my initial comments, you didn't question neutrality; you questioned me on my faith, and seemed to imply that my work here is not in accordance with it because of the changes I made. I think its rather strange for someone to be branded un-Christian simply because they're attempting to contribute to an encylopedia article in an appropriate fashion. michael ^talk 23:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael. The problem is that what you have removed from the article amounts to everything that is even mildly negative concerning Smithy. As regards your motive, I remind you of your posting to User:Expatkiwi on 14 January 2006 :

• ”I have been reading articles relating to Ian Smith and Rhodesia of late, and you seem to have been a major contributor. I thank you for doing such an excellent job with them and share your admiration for Ian Smith, the UDI and a destroyed nation”

How do you explain that?. Best wishes. Bob BScar23625 05:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I acknowledge whatever biases I have, displayed obviously through that sentence, as plainly as you have outlined yours in many of the comments you've made. I acknowledge wholeheartedly that the article, in its present form, is slanted slightly in favour of Smith and his regime. However, while acknowledging this, I consider that rectifying a slant through the insertion of on-the-fly commentary is unacceptable. Writing a paragraph, and then sitting back and editorialising on its words does not improve an article; it is this which I do not wish to see.

I would have no problem with the insertion of facts that outline a neutral view of Smith and I hope that the article's current bent is rectified. I welcome such additions. Commentary and editorialising I do not, however. michael ^talk 06:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael. Fair enough. But please ask yourself this. How can an enterprise founded in racism and violence be compatible with the Christian ethic?. Bob BScar23625 12:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the 'enterprise' (Rhodesia?) was founded in 'racism and violence'. And I think that both sides in that conflict have a lot to learn from the Christian ethic. michael ^talk 15:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael. It is really more you I am concerned about than Wikipedia. Promise me that you will have a think about the points I have raised. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 14:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt by to impose his politics on this article

I made a simple change to this article to improve its accuracy from "European-dominated" to "Apartheid government". User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington accused me of misconduct and said he suspected I was a vandal. Perhaps he would like to explain his reasons here. 82.18.125.110 12:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said on User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, I think 'Apartheid' is the correct term for the South African government, certainly after 1948. However, Rhodesia did not have an apartheid system and the terms used at the time were 'European' and 'African'. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 12:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The reference I edited was to the South African government !!!!!!!!!!! 82.18.125.110 12:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned you used too few exclamation marks there. I'd put a few more in if I was you. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 12:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Still no one has the good grace to admit that I did nothing wrong. I am sick of this. What have I done to deserve this treatment? You tell me, is editing Wikipedia worth it, or is it just pointless grief? 82.18.125.110 12:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It is expected of users to 1) be registered if they are to contribute to discussion, and 2), not use excessive !!!!'s and bold and italic text (it looks like you are shouting). You are right, apartheid is the correct term for the South African government, but not the Rhodesian one. michael ^talk 13:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't want to contribute to discussion, I was instructed to contribute to discussion, and it was all due to mistakes by others. I made an edit which I will now assume that everyone accepts was a simple non-controversial factual correction (I have to assume because it seems that no one will ever admit it). There was nothing to discuss until other people made mistakes. I got stressed because I was subjected to a series of attacks, and still there is no sign of sympathy. 82.18.125.110 13:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael. I am determined to restore balance to this article. Believe me : (1) Smithy was no hero, a fact members of his family were well aware of, and (2) Wilbur Smith novels are not a reliable source of historical information. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 17:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

ps : 82.18.125.110. I sympathise with you. Every time I try to put in anything even mildly critical of Smithy, Michael removes it. Bob

[edit] More bias

Bob, old boy, I don't know your motivation, why you're doing it, or your history—but I request that you stop adding material to articles solely to twist their political direction in your favour. You use sensationalist, innapropriate and hyperbolic terms such as 'race war' and write things blatantly out of context. Every time I've reverted your changes you haven't been interested in working towards a neutral article, you've told me about how bad 'Smithy' is. Every time you change a Rhodesia article, it's to bend it from a neutral work into a peice of 'liberation' history. michael ^talk 04:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael.

Thanks for your note.

The term “race war” was widely used in the 1970s to describe the former conflict in Rhodesia. That term was even used by supporters of Rhodesia, Time magazine, 1979. The modern usage is “ethnic conflict”. Do you feel more comfortable with “ethnic conflict” than with “race war”?. Surely it is better to use the term which was current in the 1970s rather than its modern equivalent?.

One pro Rhodesia website Free Speech makes the following statement :

“In the 1950s Rhodesia was a prosperous, White country, and it was a very pleasant place to live. The Rhodesians had worked hard and well to build their country and to develop their farms. They were a nation of strong men and beautiful women. They played as hard as they worked. Rhodesia was the jewel in the crown of the British Empire. When the rot back in London led the British government to begin dismantling its empire and turning its colonies over to the local savages, the Rhodesians declared their independence and made an effort to preserve the country where they had been born and bred.”

Do you agree with that statement?. Be honest.

regards, Bob BScar23625 14:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to play your games—that statement is blatant propaganda (altough it differs little, although in the opposite direction, from your introduction statement)! I'm interested in a neutral and appropriate introduction. Suggest one here so I can make changes. michael ^talk 15:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael. I first encountered you on the Whites in Zimbabwe page at the start of this year. Why are you so reluctant to engage with me?. Answer the two questions I have posed above. What is the problem about that?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 15:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely changed the introduction to concentrate on Smith. I disagreed with the statement and branded it propaganda—showing my disagreement with it. On the other hand, your introduction was the equal, although the polar opposite politically, of that statement in terms of simplification and taking things out of context. I'm more than happy to engage in discussion which will go somewhere, but if you're simply going to debate the negatives and positives of Smith and Rhodesia instead of concentrating on the article, then I see see little point in doing so. michael ^talk 03:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael. You haven't answered any of my earlier questions. Let us alight on one of them. Do you or do you not agree with the statement I quote above?. That is the one concerning the "strong men and beautiful women" in Rhodesia. best wishes . Bob BScar23625 15:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

ps : I have just looked at your previous comment again and see that you did disagree with the statement; sorry about that.BScar23625 16:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Postnominal letters "ID"

I've just seen this in the lead para. The link takes us to UDI, which says nothing about any such honour or postnominal. I'm going to remove it because there's nothing I know of to substantiate it. I raise this here simply because it's been there for 14 months, ever since User:Expatkiwi put it there on 7 January 2006. It's odd that nobody's taken issue with this until now. Or maybe I'm the one out of step. Grateful for any feedback. JackofOz 03:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Should have linked to Independence_Decoration_(Rhodesia). Comparitively new article. Will put it back now. --Bnynms 23:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)