Talk:Ich bin ein Berliner
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An event mentioned in this article is a June 26 selected anniversary
[edit] Overstating the fallacy of "jelly doughnut"
While it seems to be the consensus that "ich bin ein Berliner" is grammatically correct for "I am a citizen of Berlin", it may be worthwhile to point out that the translation to "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" is not illegitimate. That is to say, if Kennedy had meant to say "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" in German, he could have said "ich bin ein Berliner", correct?
What I'm getting at is that the article implies that the jelly doughnut thing is a complete mistranslation on par with saying it means "I am an automobile transmission", and I think that that tone should be improved upon. —wfaulk 23:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- All right, if you can phrase this in a way that doesn't imply that there's something to this legend after all, please do so. ProhibitOnions (T) 13:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- What a tempest in a teapot. I once asked a German-born colleague about this story. He acknowledged that Germans understood that JFK was slightly incorrect in his German grammar, that it could be interpreted as calling himself a jelly doughnut, and that no one cared because it was the sincerity behind it that counted: "We knew what he meant." Wahkeenah 05:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- The point is that although "Ich bin ein Berliner" could be interpreted to mean "I am a jelly doughnut", it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. The urban legend is that Kennedy got his German grammar wrong and what he said could only be interpreted to mean "jelly doughnut", and that simply isn't true. He said a sentence that's syntactically ambiguous, but that has one sensible interpretation and one absurd interpretation. —Angr 08:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- And my point is that my German colleague did not consider it an absurd interpretation of the words themselves, just that it wasn't worth writing page after page about it. Maybe it's time to archive this talk page, which goes back 2 or 3 years on this overkilled subject. Wahkeenah 09:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- The point is that you are still stretching the attribution of being homonymous words: it did not need emphasis or any performance to "make" it into something that "yeah, we know what he meant", like being nice to an uninformed person. The standard German interpretation of "ich bin ein <name of town>" is simply that of a citizen of the named town, equally for Berliner, Frankfurter, Wiener, Hamburger or any other place in the world. - any other interpretation is very verrrrrryyyyy remote. The only way to let a native German pick up the pun is to say "Ich bin ein Hamburger" while holding a Hamburger in the air and pointing on it. Everything else would not work. Guidod 22:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- My friend was a native of Germany, so I'll take his word uber alles. Wahkeenah 23:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Go and ask him if it is a stretched interpretation. He has been merily agreeing on the fact that it is homonymous sentence - you are interpreting it being on a similar level. Which is plain wrong. Go and ask him. or just take the word of the very many native Germans on this talk page. IMO, you colleague has been nice to you and that's about it. Guidod 23:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Later. Right now, I've got a craving for a Hamburger and a Berliner. :b Wahkeenah 23:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The point is that you are still stretching the attribution of being homonymous words: it did not need emphasis or any performance to "make" it into something that "yeah, we know what he meant", like being nice to an uninformed person. The standard German interpretation of "ich bin ein <name of town>" is simply that of a citizen of the named town, equally for Berliner, Frankfurter, Wiener, Hamburger or any other place in the world. - any other interpretation is very verrrrrryyyyy remote. The only way to let a native German pick up the pun is to say "Ich bin ein Hamburger" while holding a Hamburger in the air and pointing on it. Everything else would not work. Guidod 22:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- And my point is that my German colleague did not consider it an absurd interpretation of the words themselves, just that it wasn't worth writing page after page about it. Maybe it's time to archive this talk page, which goes back 2 or 3 years on this overkilled subject. Wahkeenah 09:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- The point is that although "Ich bin ein Berliner" could be interpreted to mean "I am a jelly doughnut", it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. The urban legend is that Kennedy got his German grammar wrong and what he said could only be interpreted to mean "jelly doughnut", and that simply isn't true. He said a sentence that's syntactically ambiguous, but that has one sensible interpretation and one absurd interpretation. —Angr 08:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- What a tempest in a teapot. I once asked a German-born colleague about this story. He acknowledged that Germans understood that JFK was slightly incorrect in his German grammar, that it could be interpreted as calling himself a jelly doughnut, and that no one cared because it was the sincerity behind it that counted: "We knew what he meant." Wahkeenah 05:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Edited the donut legend, cut alot of irelevant information, did this and that
I've made a couple of edits as a native-speaker of German, as it is closer to encyclopediatric standards in my opinion, I've cut some irrelevant info. Comments are welcome. I also changed the translation from "I am a citizen of Berlin" to a more direct and correct translation, "I am a Berlinian", though I don't know if it isn't grammatically wrong in English. Everyone's welcome to revert it. "I am a citizen of Berlin" would be "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins" in German, the interpreter translated the Roman sentence to German as well,"Vor zweitausend Jahren war der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Bürger Roms‘. Heute, in der Welt der Freiheit, ist der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Berliner‘." INTERNAZI 15:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- The irrelevant info was quite in need. Shorter explanation = more room for interpretation = 101 fool to say "there must be something in it". The current text is too soft even that I must admit it reflects better the boring tone of a lexicon entry. Cheers, Guidod 22:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
