Talk:Intelligentsia

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once again i forgot to login before i was making changes.. anyway, question may go to me. Szopen

I have revised the initial subsection totally. Sorry to do, for all, who had contributed. I supposed, however, that the article had been too fragmentary. Linas 15:09, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

Thanks for that, the new section is great! It's better than the former one since it's much more detailed and internationalized. However, I'd still like the section about the ethymology of the word preserved. Halibutt 17:59, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

exactly. I don't know why you have removed that ethymology, Linas. Szopen 10:05, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Problems with this article 2 Status or social class 3 Re 4 Coffee 5 Ethymology 6 Removed 7 NPOV and OR 8 Suggested reading 9 Pronunciation 10 Translation of "prosloyka" 11 Merge proposal 12 About "shit of the nation"

[edit] Problems with this article

Hello,

I have a few criticisms regarding this article which I think warrant a major edit:

1. It seems that the origins of the word "Intellingentsia" is most commonly connected with Russian history, including the 19th century socialist movements and the Bolshevik revolution. It seems unfair that these events are barely mentioned in the article.
2. I'd suggest that we create a section that explains what Intelligentsia means, followed by several sub-sections describing significant events/details for specific countries -- Poland, Russia, maybe others.
3. I believe the more narrow definition of the word, as "liberal and patriotic intellectuals" (this may be expanded) deserves to be given up-front. Right now this political aspect of intelligentsia is in the Polish section.
4. (2nd paragraph) The term first appeared in Poland in the first half of 19th century. It was later accepted into Russian,[...]. Is that a fact? AFAIK most English-language sources list the word origins as Russian, not Polish. I certainly never heard about this Polish connection. Perhaps the author could provide some evidence to the contrary.
5. (3rd paragraph) [...] being divided mostly by national dependence [...]. What exactly is "national dependence"?
6. (4th paragraph) [...]changing intelligentsia into class of intellectuals[...]. This seems to contradict the definition, which states that "Intelligentsia" is a social class of intellectuals.
7. ("Poland", 2nd paragraph): [...]The Polish intelligentsia specifically was considered the backbone of the modern Polish nation[...]. Considered by who? Any socialist will tell you that the working class is the backbone of any nation.
8. ("Poland", last paragraph): [...]intelligentsia [are] people believing in their duties. It seems to follow that those who are not members of intelligentia don't believe in their duties. This somehow seems kind of arrogant to me.
9. Generally, I think most of the stuff under Poland applies to other contries as well.

--peestrus 23:46, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1) Indeed, there should be more info.

2) Agreed. Any Russian volunteers?

3) See number 2

4) The very word is of Latin origin intellego, -ere - to understand, to comprehend. It came to Polish language together with countless other latin words and expressions in the 17th century and had the basic meaning of "intelligence" (see also German Intelligenz or French intelligence). However, by late 18th and early 19th centuries the meaning was widened and started to denote a class of "thinkers" as well. On the contrary, the very word had never any conotations in Russian since prior to mid-19th century it didn't exist there at all, neither in the wider sense nor in the Intelligentsia meaning. The Russian equivalents of the word were (and still are) [ponyatlivost'] and probably also [soobrazitelnost'], with [inteligentsia] being used for the class of people only. The word might've become popular in the West thanks to the Russians, but it wasn't them who invented it. It must've been as foreign to them as it was to Poles - a hundred years earlier.

7) Well, not in here :), most of the prominent Polish socialists were members of the inteligentsia themselves. Maybe the backbone is not the best word here, but take a look at those who created Poland after WWI (including the socialists like Piłsudski, Sikorski, Daszynski, Moraczewski, Paderewski...) - 99% of them were inteligentsia, not workers or aristocrats.

9) Yup, perhaps it could be internationalized a bit. Halibutt 03:44, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Well it seems we all understand this word ("Intel-sia") slightly differently. I might make some changes from a Russian viewpoint, let me think about it.

BTW, Russian is my first language, I appologize if I didn't make it clear upfront. Regarding the ethymology -- I'm aware of the the word's Latin roots, I was just surprized to hear it was used in that sense in Polish so early. No pun intended, I believe you :)

OK, regarding the backbone thing -- it sounds like Polish intelligentsia considered itself the backbone of Polish nation. No surprise there. What I'm saying other "social classes" probably had other opinions, no? How about aristocrats? Peasants? --peestrus 04:56, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I forgot to add that in Polish language the -cja suffix is also used to denote other social classes or groups - like for instance generalicja - the group of generals of the Polish Army. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 07:27, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Status or social class

I believe that intelligentsia form not a social class but a status class (as defined by Max Weber - see his Three-component theory of stratification. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:07, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure you read their definitions carefully? Mikkalai 08:57, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Re

• status class/social class. You are right, as long as, the reader knows that it's Max Weber's definition of status class. Words mean different things to different people.

• Polish/Russian. I am curious to see evidence too, this is news to me. I can neither deny nor confirm it. Poland and Russia are very closely related.

• • Not in this regard

• I'd include several short biographies of prominent intelligents, an intelligent (noun) is what we call a member of the intelligentsia in Russia. Academecian, Andrei Sakharov is considered by all in Russia to be a model intelligent. I kind of like the Polish thing, so I'd include a short bio of one Polish intelligent. The distinguishing marks of intelligents were well-roundedness, an intelligent must be well read and know a little about everything, not just his specialization. That's what diffirentiates an intelligent from a specialist. Secondly intelligents acted as the conscience of the regime, criticizing rulers overtly through humor in their art and poetry. Thirdly intelligents had to have integrity, defend eachother from the regime. A kissing cousin of the intelligent would be the court jester, I think they played a similar role.

• • Please do not mix intelligent and being a member of Intelligentsia. Those are two different terms.

LevKamensky

[edit] Coffee

Intelligentsia is not just a social class.

[edit] Ethymology

The term was coined by Karol Libelt in his "Philosophy and Critics", from where, through the political elites of Great Emigration, it became wider adopted in French language as intelligence. --Lysy ^(talk) 11:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

In what context and what meaning was the "inteligencja" word used in the diaries of this Russian pal? BTW, in 1844 also Polish philosopher Bronislaw Trentowski, who lived in Germany at that time but closely cooperated with Polish philosophers in Greater Polish Duchy. And Libelt lived in greater Poland, which was not part of Russian empire (Hence my edit). Szopen 17:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

In making the difference between intelligent and non-intelligent people you do the work of Pol Pot. He believed that every man with glasses had to be executed, because glasses were a sign of enlightenment. And even if some unlucky sod out there really wants a Pol Po/Mao Zedong government, think again. it helps, I can assure you.

[edit] Removed

The following addition by an anon editor removed:

Coiner of the term 'intelligentsia' was named as the Polish philosopher Bronislaw Trentowski (source: http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/history/prehistory2.htm

4310 TRENTOWSKI, Ferd. Bronislaw von: Die Freimaurerei in ihrem Wesen und Unwesen.

Leipzig: Brockhaus 1873, 23, 393 page, Word: 1730).

I am wondering how widespread this version? And who the heck is Bronislaw Trentowski? `'mikka (t) 23:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV and OR

An interesting article. I'm glad that so many people have collaborated in writing this, but there's still a long way to go.

This article is still very much NOT written from a Neutral Point of View (NPOV). Much of it also is clearly original research (OR) and is more appropriate for an editorial in a newspaper than for a Wikipedia article. Here are just a few examples:

POV (not neutral point of view):

• "Because the USSR was a very well read and well cultured nation"

• "It would not be an understatement to say that powers that be want to erase the Soviet intelligentsia as a historical body from history books and the memories of people. But the Soviet Intelligent always was and always will be, from Polish court jester Stañczyk, to Russian bard Yulij Kim, to the American success coach Doc Love. The archetype is immortal."

OR (original research):

• "But the temperament of a member of the intelligentsia is somewhat more social than that of an intellectual. Knowledge for a member of the intelligentsia is more a currency for high tone conversation than an end in itself."
• "A spiritual person may say that a member of the intelligentsia is a contemporary incarnation of the court jester."
• "It has become fashionable to say that the intelligentsia has become, or is becoming, extinct"

Moreover the article introduces sui generis the use of "intelligent" as a noun and a synonmy for "member of the intelligentsia." This is NOT standard English usage, as far as I know. If the author wishes to use "intelligent" in such a sense one of two things need to be done: 1) the author needs to show that this is an established usage in English or 2) the author needs to use a transcription of the Russian word and place it in italics to show that a foreign word is being used. Interlingua ^talk 03:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Bronisław Trentowski was Polish philospher,

http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/timeline.htm "Bronislaw Trentowski publishes Cybernetyka -- a vision of unified human activities guided by the transdisciplinary finesse of a manager who must be transdisciplinary owing to the inability of any single discipline to capture the range of knowledge requisite to such management. (1843) Sidenote: Bronislaw Trentowski, with Karol Libelt, is credited for introducing the term 'intelligentsia' (1844) "

hmmm.. I have no access to article here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/x5486w7604j788j3/ maybe it has something relevant..

http://219.141.235.75/shxs/s09_shx/zlk/huangping/Imagining%20Impossibilities.htm http://www.i-house.or.jp/jp/ProgramActivities/alfp/pdf/2001Report.pdf#search=%22trentowski%20libelt%20intelligentsia%22

As a term intelligentsia appeared first in the middle of the nineteenth century. It denoted "free professions". It was remembered V.G.Belinsky and Peter Boborykin first introduced the term of "intelligentsia" into Russian literature in 1846 and 1860, but Aleksander Gella finds that the first reference had been made by the Poles Bronislaw Trentowski and Karol Libelt in 1844. (A. Gella, 1976:12, 20; and 1987a. Cf., M.E. Malta, 1961:I.) Szopen 16:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested reading

История Свободы, Исая Берлин Рождение Русской Интеллигенции Your version of the article is factually inaccurate.

1. Intelligentsia entered global vocabulary from Russian.

It's not. You could at least read the discussion. As a name for social class with today's meaning it was coined by Libelt, Polish philosopher or maybe by Trentowski. The word was also used earlier but not in the sense as today's.

1. Intelligentsia was an order with common ethos

"order"?

1. Intelligents main feature was that they liked to dig in books

No. Main feature of intelligents were that they had general knowlede of thwe world, had ability to live off their mental abilities, and were people interested in culture and future of their own nation. There is a difference betweeen intellectuals and intelligents. Szopen 15:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

===== What about intelligentsia as the academic ellite of a "democratic" country, which in debt and dependence to the political ellite, ligetimizes propaganda as accepted fact, therefore manipulating the general population into policies they might otherwise oppose? Is that not intelligentsia? from zionist proffesors to FOX writers, from think tanks to purposefully selective editors; what about an online ecyclopedia where it is not even suggested that northamerican society might be plagued with scholars who would rather not question the truth value of the oficial story in order to retain their position of priviledge? Oh, no i forgot, it's those evil commies that live in a deeply indoctrinated society; here we have freedom fries, of course we are free. Kobaincito 09/08/06

[edit] Pronunciation

Should the pronunciation of this word be added to the introductory paragraph?

[edit] Translation of "prosloyka"

The article says: "In the ideology of Bolsheviks, intelligentsia is not a real class; its status is described by the Russian word 'prosloyka', which is normally translated as 'stratum,' but in this context bears a deteriorative nuance."

The translation of "prosloyka" as "stratum" is essentially incorrect. This word, even though having the root "sloy" ("stratum" or "layer"), means "interlayer", "interlining", "intercalation", etc. It implies by its prefix and suffix that it is not a separate independent layer, but merely a layer which has the only function to separate other layers. This should be fixed but I'm not a native speaker and I don't know which word to choose.

[edit] Merge proposal

It was suggested to merge Russian intelligent written by a newbie into Intelligentsia. I have a mixed feeling about this article.

• To begin with, the title and content are chauvinistic: in Imperial Russia and Soviet Union there were intelligents of all nationalities.
• Besides "rissian", the proper title of the article is kinda "Idealized image of Russian intellegentsia (as it resembles Moral Code of the Communism Builder or Jesus Christ with university degree)
• Unreferenced
• Better get rid of the list of names: there are hundreds of them, and any selection is POVish.

`'mikkanarxi 04:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About "shit of the nation"

Lenin actually talked about a specific(pro-imperialist in his view) part of the intelligentsia, not the intelligentsia as a whole(see http://www.dvgu.ru/forum/archive/1535/thread.html). I suggest that the article should be changed in order to reflect this. 81.172.134.32 00:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)