Talk:Iranian theory regarding the origin of the Azerbaijanis

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Contents 1 ! 2 Is this what they teach in Iran ? 3 This article is a POV about Iranian Theory 4 This article is definitely POV, shouldn't be there 5 Is this theory scientific? 6 give up 7 Expanded Intro

[edit] !

Hot damn, you know there must've been been some heated arguments in the other articles when you stumble upon an entire article on this topic. To make an analogy, it would be like buying a comb that says "do not eat". You read that warning and know that something really interesting must've happened that they wrote it. --Bobak 23:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Everyone knows about this article...Khosrow II 23:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just asked my coworker, girlfriend and mom and they hadn't... my mom didn't even know that there was a think called Wikipedia and only has a shaky understanding of the "internet" ;-) --Bobak 01:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait, I'm confused. You think the general public should know more about this article or other Wikipedians?Khosrow II 01:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I now see it was a failed attempt at being light-hearted :-( --Bobak 01:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Im so confused. LOL :DKhosrow II 14:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this what they teach in Iran ?

Is this what they teach in Iran ? Azeris are not Turks but Persian. Kurds are not Kurds, but Persians.--BlueEyedCat 10:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

BlueEyedCat 10:29, 14 December 2006; Yep, they also teach us that the great Iran is from China to Europe and all those who speak Farsi or have been a part of Iranian/Persian civilisation (and are proud of being a part of that civilisation) are Persians/Iranians! You have a problem with this? Why? Do you have any idea how many people speak Farsi in the region (including India, Pakistan and even China) today? Kiumars 20:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is a POV about Iranian Theory

I don't think we can put POV's as an article to wikipedia. Wikipedia is for facts and POVs doesn't belong to here. Therefore I suggest we delete this article--Ogulsev 19:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. Once they've just started a great campaign in Persian web sites and forums to insert this POV to Wikipedia. This article must be deleted. You can search it in www.bia2.com --BlueEyedCat 00:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL, can you prove anything in the article as not correct? No you cant, so I suggest you leave it alone. Facts are facts and most of the time facts do not support your pan Turkist view. Oh yea, and just to let you know, Turks did not originate in Turkey, have not been living in the Middle East for 8000 years, and ARE MONGOLOID! Do you look like the real Turks in Chinese Turkestan or the other Central Asian countries? No, infact, you are more Iranian, Anatolia, Armenian, or Greek than Turk! Genetics have proven it.Azerbaijani 01:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article should be deleted! why because they distort the facts and citations! look just what they have done in citation 14: they took it from the context and stated as a citation but what that citation is really: "After a series of wars between the Russian Empire and Iran, the treaties of Golestan (Gulistan; 1813) and Turkmenchay (Torkmanchay; 1828) established a new border between the empires. Russia acquired Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Nakhichevan (Naxçivan), and Yerevan. Henceforth the Azerbaijani Turks of Caucasia were separated from the majority of their linguistic and religious compatriots, who remained in Iran." and they stated that as if this citation is saying that Azerbaijanis in north and south are different. I edited it and i appeal to Wikipedia: this article should be deleted because citations are distorted. that is I found one.Elsanaturk 12:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Again distortion and distortion. look what they had written "Strabo mentions that the people of Iranian Azarbaijan as Iranians who spoke Persian".(I deleted it) In Strabo's time there were no Iran, no Iranian Azerbaijan and no Persian. there were Persia, Atropatena and old Persian. this obvious mistakes show that this article should be deleted.Elsanaturk 12:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is definitely POV, shouldn't be there

The article is trying to make a "conclusion" that Iranian Azeris do not have the same genetic mix whatsoever with Northern Azerbaijanis and that Iranian Azeris have almost nothing to do with being Turks.

I think some of these issues need some serious considering and editing by some independent-mided people. Wikipedia is not for the purpose of promoting Persian/Aryan/Iranian genetic/race idealogy. The references in the article DO NOT point to that conclusion. Of course Azeris are mixed with various peoples and it is for sure that Azeris are mixed with Persians, simply because of mixed marriages and also becasue of the land proximity. What has that got to do with the rest? These are obvious issues. In Switzerland for example ehe German-speakers and the French-speakers are definitely more similar genetically speaking than Swiss Germans and Hamburg Germans. What does that have to do with anything else? No matter what Germans are Germans, and only Germans (ethnic Germans) decide whether they are Germans or not. And Farsi people DO NOT decide what genetic mixes Luri, Kurdi or Azeri people have so that they relate them to themselves.

This is one of the old Persian chauvinistic policies of assimilation started by the Pahlavi regime and pursuied by the Islamists (who shamelessly supported Christian Armenia in the conflict with Shia Muslim Azerbaijan) to make ALL Iranian citizens believe that there is only one PURE and REAL race and that is the Iranian/Aryan race. This especially targeted Iran's 25% or so Azeri population. Iranian authorities have been feeding the Azeri population with propoganda that Azeris should not speak Turkic, and it is some sort of a sin that they Speak Turkic because they have been Turkified "forcefully". AND THEY NEED FORCEFUL PERSIANIFICATION NOW... As stupid as it looks, this has been the policy in Iran for over 80 years.Bm79 08:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia NPOV before you make edits.Azerbaijani 16:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this theory scientific?

Turks in Turkey are not related to Turks in Central Asia. They belong to Caucasia race. OK. Iranian people also Caucasia race. OK. Azeris in Iran are also Iranian, so they also belong to Caucasia race. OK All of them belong to Caucasia race. Therefore, how can one claim Turks in Turkey and Azeris in Iran are not related? A:Persian-Iranian B:Azeri C:Turkish We know C is similar to A. B and A is also similar. Therefore, B and C are also similar.Paparokan 17:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Paparokan 17:35, 5 February 2007; yes it is the state of the arts of science. It is not that primitive as you try to put it, is this the best you can do? The answer is the Genetic Science! Did you know that a genetic test can tell you what your make up is? You may not like it but that is the fact! People in the west are paying to find who their real parents and ancestors were! And many are shocked by the test results! So, brace yourself for a shock! It is a scientifically proven test and is being used in prosecuting people who committed crimes 30-40 years ago! Now all we have to do is to sit and watch lies being unfold! Kiumars 21:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] give up

Dr Mâziâr Ashrafian Bonab (an Azeri himself) has made a relevant DNA study on the Azeris in both Iran and Azerbaijan. His result proved once again that Azeris were no more different than their fellow Northern Iranian neighbours and their Armenian & Georgian neighbours. No traces of a supposedly “Mongolian” marker was found, which concludes that the Azeris are not related to Turcoman nor Eastern Turks. Azeris are close to Persians and are only speaking an Altaic language.

How could people still continue to ignore scientifically facts and spread separatism or pan-Turkism? It’s ridiculous. Azeris are Azeris. period

"The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran"Paparokan If European and Anatolian Turks are not related to Azeris in Iran, to whom are they related? For sure, European and Anatolian Turks are not Mongoloid, but they have Caucasian features. All Iranians, also Azeris in the group also have Caucasian features. So, all of them are genetically related. What do you mean by Iranian features? I know only 3 human races: Caucasian, Mongoloid, Black. (Last word: I do not believe in races. All human beings are Homo Sapiens, only difference is their languages and culture, nothing more!)Paparokan 21:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)21:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Paparokan 21:23, 23 February 2007; Uh! And where do you put the red-Indians, Australian aborigines, and Chinese and Japanese and Koreans and other races then? They will kill you if you told them they are the same race! It is so convenient to class people in as little as you want when it suits you, right? But I am afraid you are stuck this time! Kiumars 21:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I think languages and culture is more important than race concept. Also, I don't think that scientist is neutral being an Iranian Azeri.Paparokan 00:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with you, but If Azeris were so "turkish" how come they didn't join the Ottoman Empire and remained Iranian? How come Azerbaijan is not in Turkey? How come that the Qâjârs were Azeris but considerd as Iranians? How come my Azeri uncles celebrate Noruz with their heart & soul? How come Googoosh sees herself as an Iranian and not azeri, hu? Well, it is simple: It is called the power of culture. The National identity of Iranians consists of Azeris, Persians and Kurds (majority ethnicities). We’ve lived in Peace and harmony for centuries and were blessed with our GREAT culture. Why do you want to break that and create a possible unwanted civil war? Azeris are not separatists, only a few people like yourself who spend all of their free time to promote this radical and crazy idea on the net are! I'm sorry to break your dream but Iranic culture is somehow stronger and Azeris are a part of it, whether you and your separatist friends like it or not! Be proud of that..Sonabona

sonabona, my objection is to the genetics study that Turkish people in Anatolia and Azeris in Iran are not "genetically" related. I think that Turkish are genetically related to Azeris, Persians, Armenians, Greeks, etc since they are neighbours. "We are more Iranian, Anatolia, Armenian, or Greek than Turk!" Paparokan 00:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The scientist does not control genetic results...If he could, that would make him God wouldnt it? Also, this study was conducted for a major Western University.Azerbaijani 01:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well at least he proved to you separatists that your opinions lack some scientific grounds. Pan-Turks and pan-turanism want to create a fictional bond with Easter Turks (Oghuz, Khazaks, Uzbeks etc.). This study proved that Azeris have only a linguistic connection as a common marker. Azeris are a part of the Iranian peoples in Eurasia/Caucasia, just like the Gilaks, Mazenderanis, etc. Azeris are certainly not Persians, but Iranians. period

[edit] Expanded Intro

Because of the very subject being POV, the intro of the page, consistent with academic and Wikipedia standards of neutrality, must be NPOV and reflect the pro and contra positions. Currently, the intro not only completely fails to present any contra position, but is full of POV. Consider the current intro, especially what I have placed in Bold and Italics: "The Iranian theory regarding the origin of the Azerbaijanis seeks to prove a link between present-day Azeris and their pre-Turkification Iranian past. This theory is supported by historical accounts, the ancient Azari language, present day place names, cultural similarities between Iranian peoples and Azeri's, archaeological evidence, and DNA testing. It is also favoured by some notable scholars and sources, such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam, and is the only theory with solid evidence supporting it ^{[citation needed]}."

The re-worded alternative is IMHO better, as it removes the POV and baseless claims, and balances it out: "The Iranian theory regarding the origin of the Azerbaijanis seeks to prove a link between present-day Azerbaijanis and their pre-Turkification Iranian past. The proponents of this theory argue it is supported by historical accounts, by the existence of the ancient Azari language, present day place names, cultural similarities between Iranian peoples and Azerbaijanis, and archaeological evidence. It is also favoured by some notable scholars and sources, such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam ^{[citation needed]}. However, this theory is not universally accepted due to the fact that majority of people and states in the region, including Azerbaijanis, before the Iranian incursions in the 7th century B.C. (Encyclopedia Britannica) were of Caucasian and other non-Iranian ethnic stock (reports of Strabo about Caucasian Albania and Iberia, the existence of Urartu and Manna states), the reports on the ancient Azari language are not definitive insofar its usage over the entire Azerbaijani homeland, and cultural and other similarities persist between all people of the region (Azerbaijanis, Persians, Kurds, Georgians, Armenians, Jews, Turks, Arabs, etc.), irrespectible of origin, religion, language and other factors. Moreover, some differences in appearance, dialects, and even DNA make-up are normal for all divided people spanning across large territories, such as is the case with Jews, Arabs, and Armenians of the greater region." This intro is not perfect -- indeed, the whole article is poorly written and needs extensive work -- however, it is better insofar as removing POV and making it more balances, whilst riddig it of unsubstantiated claims about "DNA testing" and "the only (!) theory with solid (!) evidence supporting it" (if it's so solid, then it shouldn't be a theory, but an anxiom). --AdilBaguirov 07:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Adil, don't you think it would be better if this info was moved down to the "Opposition" section instead? Is there any reason why it has to be in the intro? Khoikhoi 00:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It's only fair and standard to mention both cases in the intro, before the bulk of the article begins and details are laid out. The page is still, by its very nature and definition, going to feature Iranian POV, hence why should it hurt from including a two lines of opposition? After all, the Intro's are essentially a summary of the entire article, and as such, should include the opposing views as well. Also, the intro, and the article itself, should refrain from such claims as "the only theory with solid evidence supporting it" and weird DNA claims (where's that study? and what are the EXACT findings of it?). --AdilBaguirov 01:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

While the article itself is complete POV and doesn't withstand a serious discussion, I've expanded the intro to make it at least a little bit NPOV. Having only one POV in the intro is not fair or right, both views, pro and con, should be reflected in the intro, and then elaborated in the rest of the text. --adil 05:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the POV edits by AdilBaguirov. You didnt even discuss such a change and simple edited your POV into the article. You cannot say that this article is POV or incorrect, when every reliable source on the planet agrees with it...Azerbaijani 18:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

what do you mean didn't discuss it? Of course I did above. you can't author extreme POV and then try to put those who challenge it on defensive -- it's you who has to defend your claims, your theory as you correctly named it. --adil 07:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Your POV has cannot replace what all of these major encyclopaedia's say. Furthermore, nothing was resolved with the discussion. Your are making changes all by yourself.Azerbaijani 20:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)