Talk:Jewish lobby

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Contents 1 NPOV concerns and suggestion 2 Problematic criticism of Mearsheimer and Walt 3 Various 4 Why no answer on Talk:Jewish lobby query? 5 Americocentrism 6 Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive 7 Stab at decent resolution? Dab page 8 SlimVirgin removing blue links and reliable sources 9 history 10 New Article Proposal -- Anti-capitalism and antisemitism 11 Jewish lobby/Israel lobby back and forth 12 Tags 13 "However" section moved to talk 14 WP:ATT 15 The Economist

[edit] NPOV concerns and suggestion

The term "Jewish lobby" is used by some without prejudice to refer to the Israel lobby in the United States, although it seems clear that it is not a precise term. It would be good to note this in the introductory sentence or alternatively (and I prefer this solution) we could put "For X, see Y" notes on the top of both this page and the Israel lobby in the United States in order to handle the confusion between these two terms in the standard Wikipedia way. --Deodar 15:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Without prejudice"? According to whom? BTW, it's also used to refer to all sorts of other things. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Time historical magazine coverage of a battle between what they term the "Arab lobby" and the "Jewish lobby" -- its one of the sources I'm going to incorporate into the arab lobby article in the near future:

"Operating with growing confidence, the President and his top aides turned in their most skillful selling job on the Senate so far. The emerging Arab lobby displayed surprising sophistication and shrewdness. The Jewish lobby responded massively, but was undercut by confused signals from Jerusalem, as well as by some indecision in its own ranks, and it suffered a rare loss in Congress." [1]

Another quote, this time from Ha'artz:

"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews." [2]

The term "Jewish lobby" is also used in this recent NYT headline [3].

Here is a quote from a BBC article:

"The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians." [4]

I could go on... Anyhow, I am not claiming that it is not used with racist intent, it is a favorite term of racists, but that to say that it is only used by those with racist intent is just wrong. --Deodar 18:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic criticism of Mearsheimer and Walt

I just moved this from the article to here:

"The Washington Times qualifies John Mearsheimer's and Stephen Walt's usage of the term as the "recycling of old canards", inviting "authentic anti-Semites out of the shadows,"^[1] whereas"

The problem is that Mearsheimer and Walt do not use the term "Jewish lobby" in their paper, the author of the Washington Times article paraphrases their use of "Israel Lobby" as "Jewish lobby" and then attacks it -- it appears to be a use of the "straw man" rhetorical technique. Read the WT article and you'll see what I mean. Because of this, it isn't accurate to criticize Mearsheimer and Walt in this article for "using" the term "Jewish lobby", they didn't. --Deodar 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various

The footnotes have doubled themselves at the end and I can't see why they're doing it.

Bhouston, when you write refs, could you please start with the name of the author, if there is one? The usual practise is surname first, but it's name first in any event. Also, be sure to put quotation marks around the title of the paper/article. e.g.

Aaronovitch, David. "Message to the left: there is no all-powerful Jewish lobby", The Guardian, May 27, 2003.

Also, please don't put quotations in italics. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The problems you are complaining about were not my edits -- you should be more careful when singling people out for criticism. But anyhow, your attention is always appreciated! --Deodar 20:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a major issue remaining -- there is significant usages of the term "Jewish lobby" that are not racist nor are they trying to exaggerate influence. Thus in the current formulation there is a lack of nuance. For example I quoted these above to Jayjg:

Time historical magazine coverage of a battle between what they term the "Arab lobby" and the "Jewish lobby" -- its one of the sources I'm going to incorporate into the arab lobby article in the near future:

"Operating with growing confidence, the President and his top aides turned in their most skillful selling job on the Senate so far. The emerging Arab lobby displayed surprising sophistication and shrewdness. The Jewish lobby responded massively, but was undercut by confused signals from Jerusalem, as well as by some indecision in its own ranks, and it suffered a rare loss in Congress." [5]

Another quote, this time from Ha'artz:

"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews." [6]

The term "Jewish lobby" is also used in this recent NYT headline [7].

Here is a quote from a BBC article:

"The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians." [8]

--Deodar 20:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why no answer on Talk:Jewish lobby query?

(moved from SV talk page) It would be cool to answer my response on the talk page. Both you and Jayjg seem to be avoiding answering it. The term "Jewish lobby" is used by the BBC, Ha'aretz, Time Magazine (historically), and the New York Times in non prejudical fashions. I can find lots more references. I will continue to pursue this and outside commentators will see that your extreme position, i.e. that the term is never used by non racists or people pushing distortions, is non-nonsensical -- you are painting with too broad a brush. I know how you feel but you are not taking a position on this article that reflects all of reality, just a single aspect of it. --Deodar 02:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, it should be noted with a little humor, that this page currently has an example by Madeline Albreit, which I added, using the term "Jewish lobby" in a non-prejudical way. Also the quote from David Aaronovitch is not saying there is no "Jewish lobby" he is instead saying that "there is no all-powerful Jewish lobby" (emphasis added) -- thus he talking about distortions that exaggerate influence in order to scapegoat a minority. This topic is emotional but that doesn't mean one has to stop being precise about things. --Deodar 02:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That's the second time you've referred to emotions. In what way is it emotional; and when you wrote that you know how I "feel," what feelings do you mean? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be acting strange here -- your usual balance and NPOV concerns are going out the window and you are painting with a broad brush. This type of behavior indicates that your normal logic is being overriden for some reason and thus I suspect that it is by your emotions. If there is another reason that explains this please share? I am trying to give you the benefit of a doubt. --Deodar 03:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

But what emotions? My feelings about what? Please answer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia discussions, like email, are methods of communication in which one can not use the normal body language and voice tone cues for understanding the emotional states of others -- I am sure you are familiar that in everyday life, that non-verbal channels are very important for effective inter-personal communication. Without these non-verbal channels, people are prone to misunderstanding -- it is an established fact for email communications. I can not deduce why you are excluding this viewpoint -- I am close to 3RR now for trying to keep it in -- thus I am left speculate, its better than any alternative I've thought of so far.

Personally, I once attended a movie presentation put on by Jews for Just Peace at a local Jewish community center which deteriorated, for at least one participant, into very angry and flustered accusations anti-Semitism towards another participant who expressed support for a New York Review of Book article of Tony Judt's that advocated a single bi-national state. Emotions in this general area can run high, and emotional people don't tend to exhibit a lot of concern for nuance or an ability to see the point of view of others. (Its actually an established fact that once the fight-or-flight response is triggered there is an increased tendency towards "spontaneous or intuitive behaviors" rather than seeing and dealing with the world with their usual full cognitive potential.) --Deodar 03:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Americocentrism

Bhouston, regardless of any other consideration, please don't keep trying to switch the focus to only one country and one issue. The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with you that my concern is only one aspect of the word's usage, I never claimed otherwise -- but that does not in anyway mean that coverage of this usage must not be even mentioned in this article. If nothing else, there should be a dab header. --Deodar 02:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You yourself told me the other day that you are intimately familiar with NPOV guidlines going so far as to have made significant contributions to that core Wikipedia principal yourself. --Deodar 03:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes to the first; no to the latter, and it's a question of accuracy. You're determined to single out one use because of your politics. Mention it, yes, but don't single it out. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive

SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens have been removing references that the term "Jewish lobby" may be made in reference to the Israel lobby in the United States. It is true that the term is a favorite of racists as the current state of the article reflects but this is not its only usage as my previous comments on this page clearly show. The term is used by mainstream American, British and Israeli publications in non-prejudical fashion to reference the Israel lobby in the United States. That said, there is a deeper reason why the removal of this viewpoint by SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens is a bad idea. People that hear in vague references about a supposed "Jewish lobby" from whatever sources informal or not may end up here. They may also hear that talking about the Jewish lobby is taboo even though it exists. This page, if it only condemns any mention of it as anti-Semitism but there is some hints in the way it is condemned to suggest there is more too it, it reduces the effectiveness of condemning things as anti-Semitic. Refusing to deal with the topic here, i.e. not satisfying people's curiosity, may cause people to seek information elsewhere, information which may not, especially if it is on racists sites, present a honest picture. It is much better to satisfy people's curiosity with the truth, aim to correct people that get distorted understandings of the "Jewish lobby" in addition to pointing out what are distortions and why some groups promote them. The truth it is a lot more boring and a lot more grounding than fantasies they can find elsewhere. Honestly, leaving curiosity unsatisfied (especially when done as clumsily as the article currently does) is more dangerous than giving them the boring truth. --Deodar 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article says "used predominantly by the far right, [4] Islamists, [4] and some elements on the left. [2]". I am not a native speaker but I understand that "predominantly" is not the same as "exclusively". Is it? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response -- I appreciated it. The article's lead sentence is "Jewish lobby is a term referring to allegations that Jews exercise undue influence in a number of areas, including politics, government, and international finance." The third sentence says "The expression is regarded as an anti-Semitic slur." The second sentence from my reading just specifies where this expression is used, the qualifier "predominantly" is not in reference to how it is used. --Deodar 03:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

See: Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive. Feel free to remove this comment, its just a notice. --Deodar 03:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Ben, please don't leave messages about specific articles on my talk page. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

How's this: "The term Dirty Jew is used predominantly by antisemites, unless the Jew in question is indeed dirty." ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not a bad start, HS. But I'd tweak it a bit and add "or said Jew is responsible for starting all wars". IronDuke 03:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the term Dirty Jewish Person is more appropriate, but I'll defer to the consensus.Dasondas 21:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fwiw, IMO "Jewish Lobby" is a slur no matter the intention of the user. Those who use the term in ignorance or otherwise without bad intent should nevertheless be informed that the term itself is derogatory, and they should be encouraged to adopt alternative phraseology.Dasondas 20:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stab at decent resolution? Dab page

I created a dab page and listed two meanings so far. I have removed non-conspiratorial relevant links from this page since it is now clearly focused on one specific usage. I have also added to the article Israel lobby in the United States a "for X, see Y" template to this page. Jayjg said there are other meanings that the dab page is probably the easiest way to go. What do you think? --Deodar 04:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have also rewritten the lead of the Israel lobby in the United States to better cover why the term "Jewish lobby" is not preferred. I have added explicitly, by copying from this article, that it is an anti-Semitic slur and what it is used to allege. This seems like a good resolution. --Deodar 05:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have also created an Israel lobby (disambiguation) page that is tied to the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) page. While it may seem complex, I think this is an amazing solution that now also deals with Jayjg's earlier expressed concerns about the ambiguity of the term "Israel lobby" itself. --Deodar 05:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SlimVirgin removing blue links and reliable sources

Why must he continue to do such things?Kiyosaki 05:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you come up with anything better? What kind of argument is "blue link"? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 06:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history

Someone who knows more about this topic should expand the history section. I’ve been trying to find the origin of the conspiracy theory without much luck. Racist people don’t seem to make this allegation against any other group, so I was wondering if the conspiracy theory is based on some point in history where Jewish people did control a disproportional high number of banks or media providers. Thanks, --Arctic Gnome 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not that I particularly care, but "some point in history"? jews make up 1% of the US pop and control 85% of the fim studios, I wonder what absolute domination of the mass media could be used for? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.203.230.213 (talk • contribs).

Obviusly you do "particularly care" enough to post here. Is there a problem when talented, creative and enterprising people (many of whom happened to be Jews) create a new industry and market? It seems that some non-talented, non-creative and non-enterprising people cannot see anything but Jewish plots. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The idea of a Jewish conspiracy is silly, but whenever one minority group is largely overrepresented in something, it is of encyclopaedic value to find out why. It’s just like the question of why men are disproportionably overrepresented in government; no one thinks that there is an organized male conspiracy, but it’s still something that’s worth studying academically. If Jewish people do own a lot of the banking and film industries relative to their population, the article should say why. For example, are there just a couple of extremely wealthy Jews pulling up the average? Does the ownership date back many generations to a time when ownership laws were beneficial to the Jewish community? There surely must be some explanation. --Arctic Gnome 22:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Article Proposal -- Anti-capitalism and antisemitism

It seems that, much like anti-globalization and antisemitism, a great deal of anti-Semitic feelings are related to anti-capitalism. Many of the people that have these beliefs are obviously socialistic and/or left-leaning in political orientation (which includes many Jews, by the way), asserting that some Jews use their "traditional business acumen" and "shrewdness" to "dominate" and/or "control" key industries, in the meanwhile eliminating all competitors; this is often in contrast to those on The Right that have anti-Semitic beliefs that are racial (Racial antisemitism) and/or religious (Anti-Judaism) in orientation. However, even Nazism (often associated with the Far Right) was technically called the 'National Socialist German Workers Party,' (the key words there being 'Socialist' and 'Workers,' both associated with anti-capitalism), and if you read around you'll find that many of the Nazi leaders expressed quite a bit of anti-capitalist sentiment in relation to Jews, especially in their more personal writings. Indeed, one of the first thing that the Nazis did when they came to power was to organize mass-boycotts of Jewish-owned businesses (especially dept. stores, newspapers, and various banks), which eventually decimated the German-Jewish community economically and caused many of them to emigrate within a few months or years.

This is not only the case in modern times with the so-called "New antisemitism" (which is strongly associated with the more socialistic Left), but was also found in the past where many prominent Communists/socialists were anti-capitalist AND anti-Semitic at the same time. Stalin cracked down on Jews in the USSR post-WWII, citing that they [paraphrasing] "still have too much control in business and government." This also includes many lower-tier Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc, along with Karl Marx in his essay On the Jewish Question. Many of these Communist/socialist Jews went so far as to entirely renounce Judaism (and all religion), and became radical anti-Semites (or Self-hating Jews, take your pick) in their own right -- for example, Mátyás Rákosi and Ernő Gerő of Hungary were both ethnic Jews and were anti-Semitic, along with many other Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc.

Also, amongst non-Jews these days, it is commonly said that "the Jews own/run/control everything" (anti-capitalist & anti-Semitic) or that "Jews control the media" (the media is also a business, at base -- especially Hollywood), or that in certain industries non-Jews are no longer able to compete anymore because "Jews already own everything" or that "the Jews have entirely cornered certain markets" (competition is an important element in free-market capitalism; in fact, it is key to the whole system). The increasing numbers of mergers and acquisitions in recent times (as the world has become more globalized), especially when it comes to media companies, seems to back-up a few of these theories (see the Viacom table I've added below as only one example of how "mergers and acquisitions" have affected the marketplace; and remember this is only a single example). It is also well known that Jews have been highly successful in the banking/financial sectors and are VERY overrepresented in these fields (the "Shylock stereotype"), epitomized most by Wall Street (based in New York City), along with all of the banks that are headquartered there: it is well known that many of the top directors, boards, and CEOs of these banks and other major financial companies/corporations are of Jewish ethnic origin (see List of Jewish American businesspeople, though this is only a fraction), even if they no longer practice Judaism and despite the fact that they are only approx. 2.5% of the U.S. population. Thus, I think that Anti-capitalism and antisemitism would make a good article, as more than a few anti-capitalists often harbor anti-Semitic beliefs as well (both in the past and the present). Anyone have more ideas, opinions, or thoughts on this subject? Would anyone like to start an article on this topic? --172.128.120.24 18:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there any logical connection between the two concepts? The existence of people who happen to believe both X and Y is not sufficient grounds for the creation of an article on that subject. Anti-capitalists are a very broad group of people, and no doubt include many anti-Semites as well as many Jews (Labor Zionism, the main political movement that led to the creation of the State of Israel, is anti-capitalist in nature). Of course there have been allegations of Jews "controlling" "international capitalism", but there have been just as many (if not more) claims of a "Judeo-Bolshevik" conspiracy, or supposed Jewish control of "international communism". Jews may be overrepresented among bankers, but they are also overrepresented among communist thinkers and political leaders. Indeed, one key element of Nazi propaganda was the claim that communism is a Jewish conspiracy. Most of the anti-communist far right is antisemitic. Should we therefore have an article entitled Anti-communism and antisemitism? -- Nikodemos 04:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish lobby/Israel lobby back and forth

This statement or versions of it have been added and remove from the article for a while:

The term "Jewish lobby" is also used without prejudice to refer to an Israel lobby in mainstream newspapers in America^[2][3], Israel^[4] and Britain^[5].

Is there a way to handle this so that a stable solution can be found that everyone agrees with? Maybe the disambiguation line at the top of the article could be modified to suggest that the user may be looking for the "Israel lobby" entry directly -- the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) article is mostly a duplicate of the Israel lobby page anyhow. What do ya'll think? --64.230.127.30 04:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

putting the article under the heading anti semitism is NPOV and clearly aimed at predjudicing its future direction

[edit] Tags

I've put in the too few viewpoints tags. Further up the talk page is it asserted that "The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things". So let's have them in the article. Catchpole 09:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "However" section moved to talk

I've moved the following sentence to Talk:

However, the term "Jewish lobby" is also used to refer to an Israel lobby in mainstream newspapers in America^[6][7], Israel^[8] and Britain^[9].

The item violates a number of fundamental policies and guidelines. To begin with, it's original research; that is,

It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position.

The statement has clearly been put there to counter the sourced claim that the term's use is antisemitic, yet this counter-argument is sourced to no-one.

Next, it also violates WP:NEO:

To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term... An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy).

The sources used in this article must discuss the term "Jewish lobby", not merely use it. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Catchpole, rather than continuing to violate policy, please respond here. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read what you revert. The Haaretz article about the Jewish lobby is already linked to from this article. Catchpole 19:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I did read it. The issue you mention has been fixed. Please respond to the point. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is the material you removed was not original research, and by removing it the article is even further away from meeting NPOV than it is at the moment. Catchpole 21:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it was OR. You introduced it to counter the argument that use of the term "Jewish lobby" is antisemitic. You made that extremely clear; you were even nice enough to use the word "However", to make your intent indisputable. None of the sources you brought actually discussed the term itself; you merely brought a bunch of sources which used the term, and in so doing attempted to prove that it could be used in an non antisemitic way. If you think the article is POV, you need to find sources which discuss the term. But I don't have to tell you this; you've made the exact same argument yourself. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

What tosh. The lobby is discussed by Rosner here [9]. Catchpole 21:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

What tosh. Rosner, writing on his blog, uses the term "Jewish lobby" in inverted commas, and he doesn't actually discuss the term itself. This is an article about the term. Please re-read WP:NEO, you seem to have forgotten what you quoted from it less than a week ago. Also, please respond to the point that you were making up an argument to counter an argument about the term being antisemitic. Are you going to now claim that unless you can make up your own argument that the term is not antisemitic, that the article is therefore POV? Jayjg ^(talk) 21:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:NEO says avoid neologisms. Jewish lobby is not a neologism so I don't know why you are referring to this guideline. Rosner's article is about attacks on the Jewish lobby so I don't know why you are insisting on keeping any views that don't coincide with the AIPAC worldview out of the article. Catchpole 09:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not a neologism? I can't find it in any standard dictionaries. When was it first used? As for the rest, please explain why you insist on using original research arguments to counter views that disagree with your own. By the way, Political Research Associates is quite different than AIPAC. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ATT

How can the sentence "The expression is regarded as anti-semitic slur." be attributed to Tariq Ramadans article? Seems like stretching the sources here. In the referenced article he mentiones the expression once and though he is critical of the conspiracy theories about the powerful jews, I can not really find any evidence that he regards the expression (per se) as slur. I´ve just browsed it and am not a native english speaker, but please help me understand... Maybe sources from both "sides" should be placed under the same scrutiny? pertn 20:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the cite? Ramadan states:

Malicious words, cries of “down with the Jews” shouted during protest demonstrations and, in a few cities in France, reports of synagogues being vandalized. One also hears ambiguous statements about Jews, their “occult-like” power, their “insidious” role within the media and their “nefarious” plans. After September 11th, the false rumour that 4,000 Jews did not show up for work the morning of the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center was relayed throughout predominantly Muslim areas.

It is very rare to hear Muslim voices that set themselves apart from this kind of discourse and attitude. Often, one will try to explain away these phenomena as being a result of extreme frustration and humiliation. That may be true, but one must be honest and analyze the situation deeply. This is the real meaning of self-criticism. Much like the situation across the Muslim world, there exists in the West today a discourse which is anti-Semitic, seeking legitimacy in certain Islamic texts and support in the present situation in Palestine. This is the attitude of not only the marginalized youth but also of intellectuals and Imams, who see the manipulative hand of the “Jewish lobby” at each turn or every political setback.[10]

I don't think it's a stretch at all. <<-armon->> 01:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yup. I browsed it. The sentence in WP implies that the expression "Jewish lobby" itself is slur. The article mentions the "manipulative hand of the 'jewish lobby'" but that does not neccesary imply that to talk about the lobby, manipulative or not, IS slur. Also, should TR mean that the expression is racial slur, that does not mean that it provides attribution for the statement that it is (implicitly: generally) "regarded as racial slur". If you want to write that, you will have to source some authority on the subject stating excactly that. For now, you hardly have attribution for saying that it is regarded as racial slur "by some". (because I am not actually sure if mr ramadan would agree that the phrase in itself neccecarily is racial slur, though it is often used in that context). pertn 08:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikilawyering at its worst. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 09:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

First: I feel maybe Jayjg's latest edits here are closer to wikilawyering, aren't they? Second: Isn't it reasonable to expect that the sources say what they are given as reference to? Clearly, the source given does not justify the given sentence. actually, I would find it quite possible that Tariq Ramadan himself would not agree completely to the mentioned sentence. Thirdly: If you have arguments, you are welcome to present them. pertn 11:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing material that violates WP:NOR and WP:NEO cannot possibly be "wikilawyering". Jayjg ^(talk) 23:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

OK well I've changed the sentence to: "The expression is regarded as casting antisemitic aspersions." I think the word "slur" was causing the confusion that "Jewish Lobby" was a racial slur equivalent to nigger or kike. How's that? <<-armon->> 22:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That's better, though I am still not sure whether it is completely attributable to Ramadan. However, I suppose there are quite a few sources that will say this. An even more precise (?) proposition could be something like: "The expression is commonly asscosiated with antisemitic aspersions." Thus underscoring the fact (what TR also states) that the expression is often used in connection with conspiracy theories and so on. But not claiming that the expression itself IS the slur. (My main beef with the whole article is that it underestimates the fact that the expression is often used referring to the Israel-lobby, to a specific political phenomenom which one in the name of free speech must be allowed to discuss, without any antisemitic undertext at all.) pertn 07:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Then find an RS cite which states that "Jewish Lobby" is used in a non-antisemitic sense like "Israel lobby". I'm dubious that it IS in fact used that way, so I'm going to restore "The expression is regarded as casting antisemitic aspersions." <<-armon->> 04:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the burdon of proof is on you my friend. The sentence I propose is wider still more precisely connected to the attribution we have. I cannot really see why you want to change it. So I'm reverting. pertn 08:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: I see now that your comment is coined at my main beef with the article, mentioned in bracets in my earlier entry. This is not the motivation for the changed sentence in the lead. That change is about fitting the WP entry to what the sources say. Because of the OR policy, it is hard to document that the expression is used in a non-antisemitic way. (So I am not writing it either) I can find examples on use (I think someone have already tried to include such examples), but I guess it is harder to find some notable commentator that bothers to comment such use. Hence the OR problem, it doesn't help if I see UFOs landing on my lawn, I have to find some notable nerd to cite to put it in WP. Basically the "discussion" about whether the expression itself is automatically antisemitic seems dominated by those who would really like to put a lable of antisemitism on every word that can be critical of Israel. Their view is easier to attribute, since they have an explicit discussion about it. Well, as all of this is OR, I have no intention on writing it in the article. My entry is unrealated to this, and is only a more precise reference to T. Ramadan's quite sensible article. pertn 08:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Economist

Catchpole has again inserted the following sentence:

The Economist has used the term American-Jewish lobby to refer to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.^[10]

The article in question uses the term "American-Jewish lobby" in a headline, and then describes AIPAC as "the lobby" in the article. Exactly what it the point being made here? How is this relevant to this article? I must remind Catchpole that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the point is supposed to be, the Economist article about AIPAC and not about the term "Jewish Lobby". <<-armon->> 04:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Example that the expression can be used in a non-antisemitic way. See my edit above. I agree it is Catchpole's edit may be OR, but I also belive that examples like these should tell other editors that we should try to write the article in a way that covers this aspect of reality: That there are examples of neutral use of the concept. I think it should be a matter of honor to try to be as truthful as possible, and even though the OR-policy may inhibit presentation of the fact that Catchpole proposes, I think the article should not exclude the possibility. pertn 08:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The OR policy was not designed to be a tool to prevent POV articles being improved. Catchpole 09:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)