Talk:Jody Watley

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See also: Talk:Jody Watley.

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Contents 1 Reverse editing 2 This page 3 Was Jody Watley ever really a superstar? 4 Influence on other artists 5 Let's discuss the article 5.1 My sources 5.2 Suggestion 6 Denials 7 RancorNV 8 VH1 updated 9 Jody Watley page protection 10 Midori 11 Section for "The Makeover"

[edit] Reverse editing

I realize and respect that someone else created this Jody Watley entry, and may feel 'protective' of it, but I always thought that the spirit of Wikipedia encouraged people to come along and enhance and/or update previous entries with new or more in depth information. Ego or "pride" should be checked at the door when it comes to someone else revising your work, if it's obvious that it isn't vandalism.

Being a long time fan of Watley's, and a webmaster to a fansite, I spoted several inaccurate and/or out of date tidbits about the entry and revise based on what I know. I spent a good hour or two typing and uploading images to make JW's Wikipedia entry look as good as I could. If someone saw an inaccuracy in my writing or wanted to add to my revision, that would have been fine...but it's a bit insulting to come back and find that it's been reversed back to the way it was. DtownG 12:40, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This page

Looks a little sloppy compared to the old one. Righetti1057 03:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

*snort* DtownG 06:23, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Fixed layout, easier to read OperativePhrase 23:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Was Jody Watley ever really a superstar?

I'm not sure if there is a precise definition of "superstar," but I think that generally speaking superstars are the ultra-ultra famous, such as Madonna, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen, Prince, etc. I don't think Jody Watley was ever in that league. Her career peaked in 1987, and that peaked lasted only about a year. Somehow, I think that this sentence from the article needs some revising:

" Watley's days as an American solo superstar, though, were now clearly past her." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.200.116.199 (talk • contribs) 03:39, 18 March, 2006.

Would it be too much trouble to ask you to get an account so we know what to call you? Or at least to sign your comments? It's a bit hard to take comments left by random I.P. numbers seriously. - Nwdavis 13:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with people at least having a name behind the comments. From what I know, Jody Watley began her career in Shalamar in 1977. Chronologically, her solo debut which came in 1987 - and produced numerous hit singles and videos, etc. To say she peaked in 1987 is uniformed - and incorrect. Subesquent releases - included 'Larger Than Life' 1989-90.. which produced more Top Ten Pop, R&B and Dance Hits - not to mention additonal nominations, and inroads in fashion - unheard of at the time for black artists. If an artist is judged only on hits - I suppose the Rolling Stones peaked in the 60's, but they aren't looked at that way - they're just The Stones - and I'm not saying she's in that league...but a music career is a career. The term ' superstar' - I don't think she has ever been called that. Though Jody may not have sold as many records - one can't discount 'impact' -- in the 80's and 90's -- name another black female artist to have fashion layouts in VOGUE, Harper's Bazaar, Rolling Stone - pose for GAP ,etc.. even Madonna worked with David Fincher - after - seeing the Real Love video.... so - is she a 'superstar' - no - impact - yes - peaked - who is to say - she has a career and at least she tries to make quality music. This seems lost in this.. and even her records that weren't huge hits - still charted - and that's actually when she became more interesting as an artist - to me at least. I would revise it to say something that speaks to that fact that "She continued to evolve with her music, as an artist and songwriter, though not matching the 'commercial success' of her early solo work." gypsygliter

[edit] Influence on other artists

"She has had an impact on classic R&B stars like Karyn White and TLC, as well as younger stars like Beyonce, Ciara, Fergie, Mya."

This needs a cite, please. Have any of those artists said that Watley was an influence on them in print? Ckessler 04:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's discuss the article

Why does her entire family life have to be in the intro. Even if Midori were critical to understanding her, is the fact her father is a minister important? Not really. We need to order this properly. And stop removing the citation Dtowng. -- Zanimum 23:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be in the intro, it can be later in the article. Biographical information is an important part of articles about people. I'm trying to add a cite, and you won't stop reverting. Give me a chance to add the cite, and move the information, before you revert. Ckessler 23:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's a reasonable position. It's just Dtowng kept on removing the cite after you or I added it. Dtowng, do you understand why we need citations? -- Zanimum 23:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources that state Midori being Jody's sister
Jody Watley's bio at IMDB
Jody Watley bio at VH1.com Now can we please let the issue drop, and leave the article as it was?! - DtownG 23:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It's been discussed, now please unprotect the page, and give me 5 minutes to reorder and add citations. This is the most ridiculous dispute I have ever been involved in. Ckessler 23:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can add anything to IMDb. It should not be a source of anything but factual information. How do we know VH1 didn't get the fact from us. I'd feel more comfortable if we had another source, preferably a news or magazine article. -- Zanimum 23:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's taking it a bit far. VH1 is not going to base their information on a database like IMDB. They are backed by a large corporation, and would not publish information without independently verifiying it. Ckessler 23:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"...know VH1 didn't get the fact from us." I'm currently limited in discussion of this. If this is such a provable fact, then why can't you find backup? -- Zanimum 23:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Now you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. You asked for sources, I gave your sources. It's public knowledge that Jody and Midori are sisters. It's not my fault that this is foreign to you, nor am I going to try to track down Jody's home phone number so you can call her and ask her yourself. - DtownG 23:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Because it's unlikely that Watley has discussed this in interviews. Having a porn star for a sister is not the way to mainstream music success, even nowadays. Ckessler 23:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.allmidori.com/ Midori's bio mentions nothing of the fact. -- Zanimum 23:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you have proof her brother has a management company? -- Zanimum 23:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n11_v51/ai_18664181 Ckessler 23:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Very good. I've added the citation. -- Zanimum 23:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Midori's bio doesn't mention much of anything. No personal information, nothing beyond the usual PR garbage. Second of all, maybe they are estranged. Maybe Watley threatened her with legal action. Maybe Midori doesn't want to ruin her sister's image. There are a whole host of reasons she might not mention it. Ckessler 23:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

More sources

http://www.johnrodeo.com/midori.html/ Interview w/Midori
http://www.midorimusic.net/intro.html

So ridiculous. And I'm gonna tell you now, I'm going to revert the edit Midori's article as well. I can't believe we're jumping through hoops to convince one person of what's been public domain. - DtownG 23:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

One person? I'm also unofficial acting on behalf of Danny, who rarely edits, as he is Foundation staff. -- Zanimum 23:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Zanimum, you now have an interview with Midori that states that Jodi Watley is her sister. Coupled with the other sources, that should be enough. Ckessler 23:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll gladly say in an interview that my sister is Hillary Duff. Don't mean it's true. We could possibly say that "Porn star Midori claims to be Watley's sister, however Watley denies this." -- Zanimum 00:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

She hasn't denied it! Ckessler 00:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My sources

Okay. I've received no response from my source, on whether my discussion with them can be made public. I'll assume I can. The bios on many commercial music sites are based off promotional text sent around by the record labels. The person who created Watley's bio used Wikipedia, thus picking up on this (possible) misinformation and putting it in. The bio was circulated with the false info, and the representation company has began circulating a replacement. -- Zanimum 23:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

For pete's sake, the information was around before Wikipedia. Ckessler 23:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

But where. For all I know, you know this because you're classmates told you in grade six. -- Zanimum 23:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe that after five links, one of which came from VH-1.com (which officially tracks to the music industry that Jody is in), were furnished citing Midori as her sister that you're still playing the cynic. Jeez. - DtownG 19:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

You've provided me with a fansite (which has no obligation to higher level journalism), an interview with the one who this claim benefits the most, imdb (who anyone can edit, so it's as reliable as citing ourselves), and VH1. The Ebony article is fantastic for the brother fact, but not Midori. You've given me only source that has "anything to loose", and four that are loosey-goosey. -- Zanimum 00:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How would you propose that I verify this? The Internet Archive only has a limited record of a website's history. I've already stated how unlikely I think it is that Watley has discussed this in print interviews. I don't understand why you are insisting that I jump through hoops, but I am politely requesting that you leave this article alone for the time being. You have protected it, but as an admin, you are still able to edit. I have requested a third opinion, and will move on to mediation, if that doesn't help. Ckessler 00:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have much to add to this discussion. I have no knowledge as to whether Midori is Jody Watley's sister or not. All I can say is that if she is, I don't find it that relevant to Jody Watley's career and therefore don't understand why the reference should be made in the header. To my understanding, headers are intended as summaries of the subject's life and achievements. Reference to the completely unrelated career of a as-of-yet unestablished family member doesn't seem that appropriate. Again, I have no knowledge either way, but at the very least I'd suggest considering moving the reference to some other place on the page. Lastly, if it is true that she is her sister, I still don't see how the reference is important as to my knowledge Midori is not that famous. I'd never heard of her until I read this page. Just my thoughts. Sorry I can't be of more help. Andrew Parodi 03:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

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Oh You've got to be kidding me. Midori herself appeared on MTV's dating show, Singled Out, and admitted that she was Jody Watley's sister. Google search Midori (or Michelle Watley) and Jody Watley, and you'll be bombarded with a thousand hyperlinks referencing that they ARE indeed siblings. Then take into account that her real name is Michelle WATLEY and that there is a rather *obvious* resemblance between the two, and it is rather transparent.

But here's another source [that I'm sure will be discounted] to back up the claim:

Porn Star Hall of Fame—Midori

As to why it should be included in the article, minor biographical information (such as family, marriage, children) is usually added to give a sense of continuity. This is especially the case when one notable person is related to another notable person, and Midori is a VERY well known in her industry.

I think the person who is making a fuss over this is being unneededly anal and pig headed. RancorNV 00:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

Again, I have no knowledge as to whether Midori is Jody Watley's sister. Frankly, I don't find the topic that interesting. But I am back with a suggestion. If it is found that she is indeed Jody Watley's sister, and if someone is adamant about the inclusion of this information, perhaps Midori could be described by her real given name. Most likely, "Midori" is a monicker and not her real name. If Jody Watley is the sister to this woman, she is not the sister to Midori but to the woman who has taken on the monicker "Midori". If this information is verified and then included, perhaps it could be worded in this vein: "Jody Watley's sister [given name] has a career in the adult film business and performs under the name 'Midori'."

However, my own opinion is that the entire topic is not relevant to her career. For analysis, Madonna has several siblings involved in various careers, and yet these siblings are not given mention on Madonna's page. Christopher Ciccone, Madonna's brother, was the art director for Madonna's most popular concert, one of the most popular concert tours of all time (Blond Ambition Tour), and yet to my knowledge he is not even mentioned on Madonna's page. In that vein, I don't exactly see how referencing Midori is relevant as she to my knowledge has made no contribution to Jody Watley's career. Do the names of Jody Watley's parents appear on this page? I don't think it is standard practice for Wikipedia articles to mention siblings by name on a biographical page when the siblings have not contributed anything notable to the career of the person being profiled. Andrew Parodi 04:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this information does not belong in the first paragraph of the article. I stated this earlier on the talk page. However, a person is not only their career, and many pages on individuals have biographical details. Also, when a sibling, mother, father, or other relative is notable, they are often mentioned on a person's page. For example, look at the page for George W. Bush or any of the Arquette siblings ((Patricia Arquette). This is a petty argument, and frankly, it's one I'm losing patience with, but why should practices apply to some pages, and not others? Ckessler 06:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the key word here is "notable." I had never heard of Midori until I had come to this page, and I would wager that most people have not either. There are indeed some "notable" porn stars, that is, porn stars who have crossed into the mainstream and are household names, such as Ron Jeremy, Jenna Jameson, etc. But Midori has not reached this level. I read her page on Wikipedia, and it says that she is probably the most famous African American female porn star. But the thing is, that in itself doesn't make her "notable" to the average person, and as Midori's career is completely in a different realm from Jody Watley's career, I don't see how the reference is justified. With that, think I've said everything I have to say on this topic. I don't think Wikipedia has a hard and fast rule on how to list siblings, family members, etc., so at some level this is all just a difference of opinion that can just round and round and round. Andrew Parodi 10:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

She's notable enough to have her own Wikipedia page. Aside from that, how did this become a debate about notability? The issue is whether or not VH1 and the like are credible sources. At this point, I'm not sure I want to continue the endless circles. Either state that she is Watley's sister, or remove the reference entirely. Ckessler 15:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Notability is the main reason for inclusion on Wikipedia pages. Midori may be notable enough to warrent her own Wikipedia page with regard to her work in adult films, but the question is we are debating is whether Midori's contributions to Jody Watley's career is notable enough to warrent mention of Midori on Jody Watley's page. And, again, strictly speaking, Jody Watley would not be the sister to "Midori," the adult film persona, but to the woman who has taken on the persona. Andrew Parodi 21:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand, but this is not the standard that is widely applied to biographies here. Many biographies have mention of siblings and links to their Wikpedia pages, regardless of whether they contribute to the person's career. Ckessler 21:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That's because we can prove without a shadow of a doubt that they're related. We can't do that with Ms. Watley. Can you prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that I'm not lying when I say I'm Hillary Duff's brother? No. Because I can say whatever I want. What if when I appeared on TV to promote Wikipedia, I said I was Ms. Duff's sister. Still wouldn't prove it. What if I wrote a letter to the editor of the New York Times, defending Duff, noting she was my sister. Still wouldn't prove it. Unless Duff or her parents said, "yes, they're brother and sister", or we can find government documents linking us, it's not provable. -- Zanimum 20:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Denials

Where, in print, in a reputable publication, has Jody Watley said that she denies that Michelle is her sister? Citations, please. Ckessler 06:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. Leave out the reference, but now you have a sentence in the article that states that Watley has publicly denied that Midori is her sister? Got any cites for that? If not, remove it. Ckessler 23:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RancorNV

Has been banned, as a sockpuppet. All this user has done is comment on this talk page, and vandalise the Roseanne article. I'd advice either Ckessler or DtownG to admit to their puppetry, or else I will have no choice to hold both accountable. -- Zanimum 12:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to admit to something I didn't do, you're welcome to check my IP address. Ckessler 15:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not behind it either. But interesting that you would think I would be just because it's someone else who confirms Jody's sister. - DtownG 12:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't care if 50 people all came to this talk page, and said the two were sisters. It's just that the user only registered an account for discussing Jody's article only. I think that its a fair assumption that they're not legit. If an anonymous editor just so happened to come onto this discussion, just a day or two in, I'd not be that suspicious. I'd accept their opinion equal to the opinion of anyone else, registered or not. But when someone comes on brand new to comment on the situation, if just find it highly suspicious. -- Zanimum 20:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Highly suspicious or not, I suggest you handle similar situations differently in the future. I have been involved in some debates on edits I've made, yes, but in the time I've been an editor, I haven't been blocked, or done anything but attempt to make useful edits. Proceed with caution before you accuse and threaten people. Ckessler 23:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VH1 updated

Where's Midori now? [1] -- Zanimum 12:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You still have no sources for the denial. Ckessler 17:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. She has denied it privately, okay. -- Zanimum 00:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

No, not blah blah blah. You were harping on us for citations, and now you're inserting information into the article and refusing to provide any? You refuse to unprotect the page so I can add the citation needed tag. You should be held to the same standards as the rest of us. Ckessler 00:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Midori remains listed on Jody's MTV.com profile. Whatever. This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever had the misfortune of being part of. You are clearly someone who knows -nothing- about the singer and should not be presiding over her article. At this point, I don't even think you disbelieve it. I think you're just being stubborn about the inclusion of it just to be difficult, and are basically misusing your powers to ensure that your cynicism wins and ultimately save face. Whatever. I'm done. Leave her sister off for all I care, it'll just made Watley's Wikipedia article less thorough than the tons of others on the Internet that cite it. I thought that the purpose of an Encyclopedia was to learn about whatever subject is at hand. Guess that's not the case here. - DtownG 16:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Look. Find another admin that knows more about Jody and drag them in. It doesn't matter that I never heard of her before this dispute. I was three when she won her last award, she's old enough to be my mother. However, knowing the topic before hand has no relevance to whether something is true or not. Give me a legitimate source, a source that a university professor would accept. That is what an encyclopedia is about. That is what Wikipedia should be about. -- Zanimum 00:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jody Watley page protection

Per Wikipedia:Protection policy: Admins should not protect pages in which they are involved. Involvement includes making substantive edits to the page (fixing vandalism does not count), or expressing opinions about the article on the talk page before the protection. Admin powers are not editor privileges — admins should only act as servants to the user community at large. If you are an admin and you want a page in an edit war in which you are somehow involved to be protected, you should contact another admin and ask them to protect the page for you. Not only is this the preferable method, it is also considered more ethical to do so as it helps reduce any perceived conflict of interest." Ckessler 23:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I was not involved with the page, until you dragged me in. I had never heard of her before, and am simply protecting us from potential libel. Besides, you obviously haven't read about [disputes]. -- Zanimum 23:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

No one called you into the discussion, you edited the page without being asked for an opinion. You continued to make unrelated page edits after protecting the page, which is in clear violation of policy.

We have given in to your viewpoint; both the other person and I have agreed on the talk page not to reinsert the information about Midori being Watley's sister. However, you still need to give a citation for the "fact" that Watley is denying Midori is her sister. You don't get to have it both ways. Ckessler 00:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Look. I've not got a response on whether I can make this public, but here goes. She emailed Wikipedia, to clarify the point. Any time the subject of an article emails us about something that is the equivilent to libel, and the point cannot be properly verified, it is the Foundation's legal duty to remove the content. If you do not cease, I can bring Jimmy Wales' office assistant Danny in, to issue an WP:OFFICE. But I don't like martial law, and I thought I could make you understand how terribly lacksidasical your sources were. But you don't listen. -- Zanimum 00:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't need a clarification. You're not listening: LEAVE OUT THE INFORMATION. Midori is not Jodi Watley's sister as far as Wikipedia is concerned, because we have no credible sources. I get it. What I am asking, is for a print source that Jodi has denied it. I don't know how much more clear I can be. Ckessler 00:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It's gone. If anyone tries to readd such information, they will be banned from Wikipedia a month the first time, two months the second, indef the third. -- Zanimum 00:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Ckessler 00:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midori

This is a load a bullcrap. Midori (Michelle Watley) IS Jody's sister. She was in her "When A Man Loves A Woman" music video for petesake!!!!! She SHOULD be mentioned in the article, since she too has a page @ Wikipedia. This moderator is a ignorant tyrant!64.12.116.8 04:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with any 'moderator' (especially since there is no such thing, per se). Watley herself contacted Wikipedia's office and asked for the information to be removed. Zanimum passed this information along, and stated that any editor who puts that statement back will be banned. I don't know the details, but I presume the edict came down from WP:Office, and that's it. No discussion. Ckessler 05:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If I appeared in a Britney Spears music video, would I be related to her? I would have removed it even if she didn't contact us, if instead Joe Q. Public pointed out the fact was wrong. And every fact on Wikipedia should be referenced. Heck, if you say the sky is blue in an article, you need to reference it. -- Zanimum 20:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is true, but my point, and the bottom line is that it's not up for discussion, because the decision was already made. I might still be arguing about it, if you hadn't explained why that particular "fact" can't be added to the page. I've reverted the change on each page about 10 times, and it would be less annoying if the people doing it would just read the talk pages. Ckessler 03:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section for "The Makeover"

It sounds incredibly gushy. I suggest removing "uber-cool" from it to make it more NPOV.70.225.43.28 22:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)