Talk:John Flowers/Archive 1
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Hello. My name is Capture the Flag. I realize it is unusual for a first-time editor to post an extensive article such as this as his very first edit of all time, especially with so much filled Wikipedia convention. I have done so to separate out my subject histories, with "Capture the Flag" relating to Hackers, computer security history, and related items of that nature. These links are all accurate, this story is real and reflects statements made over a 8 year period by Mr. Flowers in a number of locations, both in print and online. I welcome discussion on this subject but consider this article to be accurate as of the writing of it, and will defend it as such. --Capture The Flag 06:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
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The little fight begins
This was added to the article:
Jeff Moss, Defcon founder has stated, "I don't doubt {Flowers team} won. I just told the reporter that Flowers, as an individual did not win any CtF, and definitely not at DC 1-3."
I removed it because you cited absolutely no source. Cite a source and you win. --Capture The Flag 03:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This was a vanity entry gone horrible wrong I think. It might be a good idea just to get rid of the whole thing. It's not like the subject is very relative.
E-mail from Jeff Moss
Capture The Flag, a friend of mine pointed to your comment on Wikipedia and I thought I'd share an original e-mail as a cited source.
From: Jeff Moss <removed>
Date: April 27, 2006 1:48:47 PM CDT
Subject: Re: Capture The Flag
REMOVED
Be sure and sign your posts next time, it makes it easier for others to track who is saying what. While it is highly questionable to cite private e-mail (which only you and Jeff Moss have contact with, and which Moss may or may not have given permission for you to use in this matter), I will leave whether or not this counts under current wikipedia policy to others.
The bigger problem is that you are now editing your own entry in the Wikipedia. This runs up against WP:AUTO. The better thing to do is to get Jeff Moss to either rescind/modify his statement publically, or point to a website in which it does. Since the core issue of that paragraph is whether you make up facts about your past, citing your own records as to your own past is kind of problematic, don't you think?
Speaking of which, have you had a chance to scan in any of your three diplomas? --Capture The Flag 03:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Further study of the letter you quoted, even if it is in fact Jeff Moss, still points out that you have misstated that you won contests in Defcon in years you did not. You are quoted in a 2001 article claiming same, so you have been doing this for half a decade. Do you have any response to that? "It's a little thing" is not a response, by the way. --Capture The Flag 03:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Of Wiki and Policy
I removed the e-mail from Jeff, out of respect for him. Clearly you have enough free time to verify this e-mail by simply asking him if he wrote it, should you desire to do so. Because my personal bio, which lists me being on the first team to win Capture the Flag is on the Defcon website and has been since before Defcon 2000, I'm assuming someone can cite that as a valid reference, should this actually be a real issue.
As for the entry. My impression is I am able to modify my own page. If I am mistaken, I apologize. What good is a public encyclopedia if it isn't able to be modified by the public?
I will say, however, I'm done modifying it. I'm sure there are other people who will spend 8 years keeping an eye on my career and creating an account just to update my page. Maybe they'll be more objective. I cannot imagine some of the biased information would continue to appear in this Wiki page if it were being properly moderated.
It is actually possible I and others were misquoted by reporters.
It's hard to be reasonable with some people.
- Lone Ronin 07:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- John per our Autobiography guidelines, you should not be editing your own article. To quote:
- "Avoid writing or editing articles about yourself, since we all find objectivity especially difficult when we ourselves are concerned. Such articles frequently violate neutrality, verifiability, and notability guidelines. Contribute on the talk page instead."
- We have no problems with you objecting to certain content, but please as these comments are sourced, please respond to these problems with sources as well. I'm sorry but "because I say it is" doesnt exactly pass our verifiability standard. ALKIVAR™
19:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Unfair & Biased
I edited what I believed to be completely biased and unfair statements. If you look at the changes, I believe my minor edits to be fair (i.e. removal of blatent attacks on my character/person). As stated, I am no longer making changes, but contributing to the talk page instead.
I would also like the Jeff Moss e-mail removed (and have done so). There's enough information in the cited D. Martin article to backup the correct retraction/statement by Moss, where he admits I did win, but not at Defcon 1 (a misquote) and not by myself.
- By the way, the citation for PixelCorps is at http://www.pixelcorps.com/atheneum/index.php?title=TM2_current_tasks_/_status
- I am unsure how to cite a public document or reference to my having worked at Microsoft, since people are considering the press to be biased (although, I do understand why, after the recent hatchet job I received from a local paper)
Lone Ronin 23:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- Anything Microsoft released that had your name in the credits would be a valid reference. ALKIVAR™ 03:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Just another small note...what does this have to do with "Phreaking?" If the article stays, the category should be removed, IMHO. --Othtim 17:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
End protection?
This article has been protected for the last six weeks, with little substantive discussion in the past month. Can we request unprotection now? Calwatch 06:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
A questionable Wikipedia entry
While I am not a regular Wikipedia contributor, I am a reader of the blog written by the subject of this article.
The content of this article centers largely around a single source, namely THE PITCH weekly magazine. This particular magazine is itself the source of some controversy, owned by a parent company who produces a number of free weekly papers which feature escort services, strip clubs and other marginally legal content. I strongly believe, if this Wiki entry is to hold up under scrutiny and not violate the WPBiography guidelines, other sources must be given which are credible.
This article is both libelous and in violation of WPBiography on a number of levels. THE PITCH weekly magazine is no different than THE ONION or THE SUN and should not be used a a single source of credibility for tearing down a person with otherwise positive mentions in articles, magazines and online web logs.
Further, a number of recent articles have been written which call into question the claims made by this Wikipedia entry. It is strongly recommended, based on WPBiography and other Wikipedia guidelines, these new articles be considered and this entry be altered to appropriately reflect accurate information.
As an unbiased observer, the bulk of this entry appears to be written by someone with a grudge against the subject. My understanding of both Wikipedia guidelines and WPBiography is that this kind of blatant abuse of Wikipedia shouldn't be tolerated.
I would strongly recommend removing the libelous material with a single source and either locking the entry or assigning a Wikipedia regular to monitor this article for libel.
