Talk:Journeyman

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[edit] Redirect from Knave

I noticed the word knave does not redirect here anymore but instead redirects to boy. I suggest that it should be switched back.

Or disambiguated -- considering there's at least one more meaning of knave to consider, namely knaves in playing cards. 84.69.188.99 16:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming of article

Wikipedia's manual of style on naming conventions puts the desired term at the common one(without being too common of course, as in the example of tidal wave). With that said, the term 'journeyperson' gets 121,000 hits on google, and the term 'journeyman' gets 9,450,000. There's an order of mangnitude difference between the two. Kevin_b_er 05:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose that we use the tile of this artticle as a redirect, but use the Genderequal title for the article.100110100 07:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You cant have a gender equal title for this article. The name comes from old english where Journeyman was a status not actually a title - if that makes sense.

Dictionary definition:

1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.

Finally Journeyperson is not in the dictionary - it isn't a word. We need to steer away from PC directives that the government and national agencies are trying to wrongy impose on certain words in the name of equality. *sigh* our poor old language :D --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 09:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not one to blindly support politically correct language, but I do think we should take note that "journeyperson" does have wide modern usage as a term in North America as shown by google hits. I recommend a redirect from Journeyperson to this page and a clear statement that the journeyperson term is in use today, at least in Canada and the USA. It may not mean the same as the medieval journeyman (or modern equivalents of this), but article should note this usage and redirect should be in place Bwithh 21:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok I agree with that I added a section and checked the redirect. Agree? Also do you have any sources we can use for that new section --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 21:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind seeing Journeyman mentioning the term journeyperson. But the term is really journeyman and moving the article (wether by the move function or by cutting and pasting article) is not the standard name. I do however note that the page uses 'his' too much. This may be the source of 100110100 misgivings about gender neutrality in the article. Kevin_b_er 22:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked into this a little more and it seems that the term "journeyperson" is being used in the UK as well. (I'll do some editing of the article later on) In Canada, the term seems to have been largely disseminated through governmental use in legislation. In the USA (and possibly the UK) the term came into wide usage through trade unions one by one gradually voting on whether to change the language to something more gender-neutral (this union trend happened in Canada as well). So, in the US at least, the change seems to be coming from endorsements by blue-collar unionized workers. The earliest mention I can find of this name change is a brief one line mention from a Wall Street Journal labor/trade union news roundup from January 1992: The sheet-metal contractors and union's training fund will henceforth use the term "journeyperson" instead of "journeyman," for those who have finished apprenticeships.. In August 1992, The Wall Street Journal published a poem (?!?) based on that line from January:

Dead Latter File

(". . . henceforth, the term `journeyperson' instead of `journeyman,' for those who have finished apprenticeships." -- WSJ news item)

How strange is our world

From the one way back when.

It's now full of persons

Who used to be men.

-- E.B. de Vito.

Bwithh 23:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

No the article title is wrong. I have never seen a textbook that says that gender bias terms should be not be changed. Its so funny how you say that the term's only political, but what caused the politics? The people! Obviously there's something wrong with the term, if there wasn't, there wouldn't be change! Look, language changes. And as the politics show, there are people who do not think it is the right term, nor do the people think it should be, or should still be, or used. We could include in the article about this controversy, & explain why the title is Journeyperson, instead of Journeyman [as Journeyman would be a redirect], & explain the history, the politics, & include maybe, 'Although it is has been traditionally a males only job, hence journeyman instead of journeyperson, journeyperson has gained wide acceptance; hence, in this article, we will use journeyperson instead journeyman.'.100110100 08:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you define wide acceptance? I still point to google results, where there's a factor of 10 difference between the usage of 'journeyman' vs 'journeyperson'. Kevin_b_er 08:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, good point. Maybe I should rephrase it: linguistic acceptance, or grammer acceptance.100110100 08:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Why did you change the external link to say 'journeypeople', the article doesn't even use the word, it uses 'journeymen'.

Sigh no this article is about the mediaval term Journeyman and not necessairily it's modern application. Also it is not accepted linguistically it is a political term - say8ing it is a term immposed by people isn't right! Common usage is Journeyman - the only websites that use Journeyperson are corporate sites desperate to follow govt legislation. I for one don't accept the introduction of gender neutral terms - they are frankly wrong and are subverting our language :D --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 19:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with gender-neutral terms that have been widely endorsed, but the fact is that journeyman has been in widespread use for centuries, no matter how widespread use of journeyperson today is. So Journeyman should take priority over Journeyperson. Bwithh 00:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German Journeymen

Good article here http://www.rechtschaffene-maurer.de/presse1.htm