Talk:Kaien Shiba

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Kaien Shiba is within the scope of WikiProject Anime and manga, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of anime and manga. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page (Talk). See our portal to learn more.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Aftermath 2 Kaien and the ninth Espada 3 What's going to happen to this article? 4 Ninth Espada Zanpakuto 5 Arroniro Zanpakuto 6 266 spoiler 7 Where should Arroniro be moved to?

[edit] Aftermath

If the "Aftermath" section is going to remain, I suggest that it be moved to between "History" and "Nejibana". It seems out of place to be mentioned after the weapon analysis. - Hitsugaara 21:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kaien and the ninth Espada

Chapter 262 suggests that Kaien is the ninth Espada. 219.115.231.27 15:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no definitive proof yet. It could be an illusion to mess with Rukia's head. 128.227.137.206 16:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

For now, we should remove it and wait for Ch 262 and sequential chapters to be translated before we jump to any conclusions. Hitsugaara 03:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added the fact that the 9th Espada has his appearance under the mask, which is true. Anything more(saying he is Kaien, saying he isn't Kaien) is speculation. Gdo01 07:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the phrase "Though not necessarily related" would count as speculation... I mean, let's be honest. This is Kubo we're talking about. There's NO WAY it's just going to be a coincidence. I like the page for the ninth espada, saying he "looks eerily like Kaien Shiba" rather than saying anything about the relation. I made the change, and it shouldnt offend anyone, I hope.

In the character section the name of the arrancar that looks like Kaien is spelled as "Arronio Alulueri", while it is spelled as Arnilo Arleri in Kaien's article. Can we agree on one spelling? Hitsugaara 15:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? It's Arnilo Arleri in both articles. // PoeticDecay 15:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I apologize, I should have phrased that better. In the Characters in Bleach section, it is spelled Arronio Alulueri, and differently in Kaien's article. Hitsugaara 15:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I was looking at Hollows in Bleach (the link provided in Kaien's article). According to that page, it's Arnilo Arleri. I'll go ahead and fix it on the characters page (if you haven't already) and the Hollow (Bleach) page. // PoeticDecay 15:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's going to happen to this article?

Now that we pretty much know that Arronio is Kaien, what changes should happen to this article and Arronio's snippet article. Should Arronio's article link here? Should we add an Arronio sub-section to this article? Gdo01 22:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

if it does turn out its not a mindgame and he actually is kaien, i'd probably just make it a subsection of this article...look at Char/Quatro/Casval/Edward from gundam, all the same guy all the same article all redirect to Char. kaien isn't really that important on his own. Kaien on his own was a dead character no more important that luppi in that sense...i didn't like the fact he had an article to start with. at least now he serves a purpose, but even so two articles would make this a clusterfuck in my opinion. --Grimjaw 23:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It's possible that Kaien's body really is the Arrancar, but it's just that regenerating hollow that's in control. But, that's only if he really is an Arrancar then we should move that just link the section for Arroniro to this page and add in the arrancar section. We'll just have to wait till it is confirmed (ReshenKusaga 03:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC))

Added links from arroniro to kaien...he has the same shikai so it IS kaien (added an image of it as well). it's probably the hollow in control but like i said, two articles would make this confusing and such...if he gets two articles why not hollow ichigo getting his own article etc. It's kaien's body, kaiens zanpakuto...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...ma fucka its a duck lol. --Grimjaw 17:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ninth Espada Zanpakuto

Is Arroniro's zanpakuto that of Kaien's. Seth 103

We haven't seen enough of it. If he releases it and it looks like a trident,[1] then we'll know for sure. –Gunslinger47 23:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't the trident only in the game? (ReshenKusaga 03:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC))

I think that's the point Gunslinger's trying to make. // DecaimientoPoético 03:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought he was saying that if it is a trident then it is Kaien Shiba's zanpaktoh, but I was saying wasn't that just in the game and it could be non-canon (ReshenKusaga 23:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC))

But it should also be remembered that Tite Kubo does contribute to the games, such as with Arturo Plateado in Bleach Wii: Hakujin Kirameku Rondo, so the trident could, in fact, be Kubo's idea. Hitsugaara 05:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It's also not unheard of for mangaka to incorporate content from the expanded universe into their personal canon. –Gunslinger47 15:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to settle this, Nejibana is indeed depicted accurately, and Arroniro does indeed possess the same zanpakuto. Chapter spoilers confirm it. Whenever the actual chapter comes out (tommorow), then this can finally be settled. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arroniro Zanpakuto

It says he's one of few arrancar whose zanpakuto don't change their form. This is bs as he is the only arrancar that does not change his appearance.

i totally agree, but i think there is some people who think Noitora's was released...giving credit to that possibility (which i think is bullshit btw lol). --Grimjaw 19:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Does he just not change it's form, or does it not change form?NinjaPirates!!!

More to the point, he's not an arrancar, as he shares none of their defining traits. His unbroken but removable mask and initial release suggest he is some sort of vizard variant. --tjstrf talk 21:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can't really say he's a vizard since the Hollow that fused with him wasn't his Anti-Thesis. And also, for Vizards, when the Hollow takes over you become a hollow. That was apparant when Ichigo nearly did become full-Hollow (ReshenKusaga 01:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC))

These are hardly common circumstances. The two were fused into one being. All the power of a shinigami mixed with all the evil of a hollow. If you want a definition, it's best to describe him as a full shinigami with the mindset of a hollow. His powers certainly don't operate on hollow principles. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That's why I said vizard variant. He may not fit the definition perfectly, but if we have to class him as either arrancar or vizard, he's definitely closer to a vizard. Arrancar are defined by their broken masks, it's what their name means. He doesn't have one. (He also doesn't use the resurrection release style.) --tjstrf talk 21:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"Vizard-like". –Gunslinger47 01:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think since he was kaien he trapped kaiens shinigami spiritual power inside his zanpakuto then took it. Seth103

I'm actually pretty sure the mask he took off is of the regular, non-hollow variety. he was one of aizen's early attempts to make an arrancar, in that definition he's a very unsual variant of an arrancar. a vaizard is a shinigami that gets hollow powers, thats not what happened to kaien. he didn't want this etc. its more the arrancar variety in the sense a hollow trying to get shinigami powers, in this case by possesing one. initially he was nothing but a shinigami, just one that was possesed; as he seems to have kaiens memories, it seems more likely now the two have fully merged. he's more his own species given his unsual creation than anything. but as he was an attempt at an arrancar, he's more a variant of them than a vaizard IMO. --Grimjaw 01:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 266 spoiler

ok arroniro has kaien's memories, he knows all of rukia's moves and such. he also has his zanpakuto. just because his face changed doesn't mean it ain't him...the spoiler says there is something with "dual residency" and his real face is two heads in a jar (makes perfect sense *eyeroll*) its possible kaien is sharing the body none the less...in fact if thats NOT it i have no clue wtf is going on. i'd say don't change it till we have a clear spoiler, or the chapter...the one thats on mangahelpers is vauge and inconclusive.

• edit* if it does turn out its not him i'll give arroniro his own article later.

--Grimjaw 17:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

thats why i said earlier to wait until the chapter is out, besides even though its a spoiler it can still be misleading NekrosKoma 17:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

i'd settle for a spoiler from pocketmofo or a more experienced translator. the only person to translate it so far, by his own admission, couldn't translate most of it. if someone who knows wtf they're doing translates, and there is reasonable logic in deciding its not kaien, thats good enough for me. if its even the least bit vauge or questionable as to whether or not its kaien i'd still wait to remove it tho. i'm not gonna go through the trouble of writing an article just to have it compressed into an old one again. --Grimjaw 18:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That explains the color spread in chapter 255, held here: Image:Espada-group.jpg. In that shot, you can see behind the mask and to the jar containing the red liquid. –Gunslinger47 19:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you guys should use the colored one as the picture, and use the one you currently have as his picture in another part of his article? Such as "Arroniro's True Form". In any event, here is a higher quality version of him unmasked from me. http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/8951/aa9espadahqkm4.jpg

67.182.0.37 19:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm waiting for a M7's cleaned copy before replacing the current unmasked copy. –Gunslinger47 20:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where should Arroniro be moved to?

The latest chapter shows that he's not Kaien; he just ate him, and can recall his memories and powers. When the actually chapter comes out, should he be moved back to the Hollow article or given his own page? It seems plausible that he'll die soon, so I would go for the Hollow page for now. Nemu 19:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

He's an espada, we've been giving those their own articles. Don't see any reason he would be an exception to that. --tjstrf talk 19:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

created an article for him, some of this stuff should be left in IMO. how much i'm not sure, so i left most of it, i'll leave it to u people to decide what is noteworthy. --Grimjaw 07:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)