Talk:Kamov Ka-50
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[edit] Reasons of failure
As for the crew workload, the deputy commander of russian army aviation corps has been killed in crash while testing the Ka-50... Apparently, the Ka-50 was originally designed as a fighter-helicopter, to destroy NATO's Apache and Cobras. Thus it would operate higher, not very close to the ground. In fact the Ka-50 were supposed to fly fighter-plane style, in pairs always. Kamov bureau has automatic formation flight control technology for helicopters ever since the mid-60's, the naval Ka-25 used this for anti-submarine surveillance and destroy method. So the Ka-50 fighter pairs would conduct dogfight against american AH-1 and AH-64 choppers semi-automatically, hence the need for only one crew in original Ka-50.
The anti-tank role is apparently an afterthought for single seater Ka-50. Even the AH-64's two person crew is too small, they often get confused by information overload and crash in low altitude flight or on landing (see Afghanistan, some four crashed without enemy fire).
Soviet Mi-24s in East Germany flew with three (3) crew, pilot, gunner and flight-engineer/radioman (in flip-down seat in the small corridor between the cockpit and troop cab). Partly to prevent defection to the west and partly to reduce workload, as cramped DDR airspace was was demanding. All in all, there is absolutely no way a single-crew ground attack helicopter can work in real life, just like a tank cannot fight effectively with a single person in it. 195.70.32.136 09:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Requested merger
[edit] Survey
- Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
- Support - The Kamov Ka-52 really only differs from the Ka-50 in the cockpit; otherwise it is basically the same helicopter. In addition, there is not enough content on either article to justify seaparate pages for such similar aircraft. - BillCJ 20:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Support - It's a variant, you could say Ka-50-2 (which I've seen) or even Ka-50B, but it's the same thing. --Born2flie 05:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose - In my opinion, the Kamov Ka-52 is an altogether different aircraft. Although it has been derived directly from the Ka-50, an additional crew member (thus, added functions) will most certainly enhance the aircraft's functionality as an attack helicopter greatly. It may even be successful as a ground-support helicopter without the requirement of formation flight whilst engaging enemies. --- Ash sul 00:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- Support - As Ash sul states, the -52 is a derivative of the -50. Wikipedia will get cluttered if we continue to put up a single pages for every variant of every airplane ever produced. Some of these craft need to be grouped. The -52 frankly, is not different enough from the -50 to warrant a separate page, in my opinion. — Andrew 20:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose 2 different aircraft and the articles will sooner or later be filled out, just give it time. The problem will be if merged that in the future the then merged article will be so big that people will cut out information to save space and thus information will be lost Potaaatos 22:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
- Support These are practically the same craft. Why not merge them then list the variants and the changes within each? I see no point in having two completely separate pages for each. G8summit 23:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose I think there are many posibilities to expand this articles without merging them. In my point of view there are 2 different helicopters, with quite different design and specifications(check the max. speed and the rate of climb) - Eurocopter Tigre 18:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
Ka-50-2 (modificated Ka-50 Black Shark for 2 pilots) and Ka-52 Alligator - different machines. They of course have similar things, but Ka-52 were designed as officer hellicopter (Leader of hellicopters' attack-groop).
The 2 helicopters share the same basic airframe, tail, engins, rotors, and systems. They differ primarily in cockpit, mission equipment and role. But the Ka-52 is still a minimum-change variant of the Ka-50. It's like I'm suggesting combining the Ka-50 with the Ka-25 and Ka-27 because they are all Kamov co-axial designs. Both articles are currently Start-status, which means they need lots of improvements to become good articles. One way to do that is to combine them on the same page. There are many other variants that share the same page, for example the AH-1 Cobra family. The AH-1G and the AH-1Z are far more different than the Ka-50 and Ka-52, but yet are still on the same page because they share a similar role and design heritage. Wikipedia is not just a repository of information on every aircraft ever built, but an encyclopedia. The goal is to have good articles, and combining both helicopters on one page will help to make this a better article in the end. Thanks. - BillCJ 02:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- The problem will be if merged that in the future the then merged article will be so big that people will cut out information to save space and thus information will be lost Potaaatos 22:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I had seen Ka-50-2 when the Ka-52 came out and before they dreamed the Erdogan. I'd have to find a really old webpage with photos for reference, though. --Born2flie 02:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you dream big! The Ka-50 and Ka-52 will both likely never enter significant production, so there probably will never be that much info about either airframe. That point aside, if the combined article ever does grow that big, the it would be split up again. It happens all the time on Wikipedia. If one version was significantly larger than the other, used more powerful engines, had larger rotors, ect., then I would support saying they are differnt aircraft. But based on what I have read, including in both articles, the major differences are confined to the nose.
The early HU-1A and the latest UH-1Y are far different aircraft, yet are covered on the same page. Same with the AH-1G and AH-1Z. Yes, the UH-1 and AH-1 are not covered on the same page, but neither the Ka-50 or Ka-52 is a utility version. The basic role is the same, though they fill different dities within that role. But if the AH-1Z had been a single seater, it would still be covered with the other versions, especially the closely-related AH-1W.
THere's obviously no consensus to merge here, so will close the discussion. - BillCJ 00:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
