Talk:Karaim language

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[edit] {{Template:Jewish language}}

While it is true that the Lithuanian Karaims esp. claim to not be Jews, that's a 1940's phenom, and not universal for all Karaims. TShilo12

It is universal for all Karaims by ethnicity. We sholud distinguish Karaims by ethnicity (Qarays), and Karaites by religion. It is no doubt that the majority of Karaites by religion now residing in Israel are Jews. Before moving to Israel, when living in diffenet countries of the Middle East, they spoke Arabic, Persian, etc., now they speak Hebrew, and they never spoke Karaim Turkic. But Karaims by ethnicity - the only one group that ever spoke Karaim language - never considered themselves to be Jews. There are only three communities of Qarays - Crimean, Lithuanian and Ukrainian (the latter is almost extinct). And all insist on their Turkic ancestry. And it's not a 1940 phenom, as they were not Jews in the Russian Empire and before this in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Don Alessandro 17:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Your assertion, while commonly asserted by some Karaim, is simply a historical fallacy. See, e.g., Blady's Jewish Communities in Exotic Places; Yaron's Introduction to Karaite Judaism, et al. The practice of some Crimean Karaites to deny any connection to other Jews is largely a nineteenth century phenomenon pioneered by Avraham Firkovitch and his colleagues. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 03:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Brian is correct. I misspoke. Firkovitch first invented the idea that the Karaims were not Jewish in order to avoid the oppressive taxes and conscription-cum-forced-conversion practices of the czars. What I was referring to was the Lithuanian Karaims' use of the Czars' dispensation distinguishing between the Jews and the Karaims as "proof" to the Nazis that they really weren't Jews (which the Nazis viewed with a great deal of skepticism and only marginally accepted). It was the Lithuanian Karaims' willingness to sell out their fellow Jews that caused the ultimate rift between the communities in the 1940s, when the Lithuanian Karaim leaders, basically selling their souls to the Devil (if you believe in such a thing), complicitly told the Germans who were and were not Karaims, thus leading to the deaths of thousands of Rabbinic Jews who sought refuge among the Karaim. What's really pathetic, in my mind, is that the Lithuanian Karaims seem to think that this action on the part of their leadership is a laudable decision, rather than one deserving condemnation [as the UN and YV have done]. <pontification>Happily, it was only the Lithuanian Karaims who tried to advance themselves by selling their brethren to their deaths, and I have no doubt that's why they're as irrelevant today as they are. The Crimean Karaims chose to hide their Rabbinic cousins in their homes, and today are flourishing as they hadn't since the 1200s. The fact remains, however, that regardless of how the Lithuanian Karaims view themselves, they're not only "not the sole heirs" to the tradition they claim as their own, but they're its reprobate bastards, and, again "happily", very much in the minority.</pontification> "Tell us how you really feel, Tomer^talk 09:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

See my thoughts here Talk:Crimean Karaites

Don Alessandro 11:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

PS

Unfortunately, Crimean Qaray community is not flourishing now. Yes, its condition is much better than in was during the Soviet era, but its is much worse tha it was before the Russian revolution of 1917. You can believe me - I often visit Crimea and I can see it myself.

another thing- i don't know if this can be changed, but the suffix -im in hebrew, as you prob know, is a pluralizer. to say karaim leanguage is very akward, and even more so karaims. maybe that's what they were called, i don't know, it was wrong then. 72.93.211.242