Talk:Ketchup

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Contents 1 Ketchup and US Politics 2 Tomato Sauce? 3 Etymology 3.1 The Oxford English Dictionary 3.2 The Encyclopaedia Britannica 16th ed, (1985) 3.3 The Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th ed, (1911) 3.4 The Japanese Wikipedia 3.5 Another Japanese theory 3.6 My opinion 4 Bottling 5 Mushrooms! 6 Sugar 7 Is there any non-Heinz picture to put here ?! 8 Irrelevance 9 Red sauce/red gravy? 10 Bitter? How? 11 Urban Legend? 12 Cold ketchup... Grosser than Gross 13 NO MENTION OF BANANA KETCHUP 14 Ketchup/Catsup

[edit] Ketchup and US Politics

While it is true that Bush supportes started covering up Heinz labels and produced 'alternative' ketchups during the election, I also heard that T. Heinz was no longer involved in the Heinz corporation. Is that true? If so, it should follow the 'as not to add to his opponent's campaign coffers.[9]' comment.

207.69.137.24 14:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tomato Sauce?

Ketchup is known as Tomato Sauce in Australia - perhaps in other countries too?? (suspect U.K.)

In the United States we're schizophrenic on this subject. Some say ketchup and some say catsup. Even the manufacturers can't make up their minds. Tomato sauce is something else again -- a canned substance made up of liquified tomato with salt added. -- Zoe

Yeah in the UK it's usually called 'Tomato Sauce' but Ketchup is almost as common. 80.46.160.59 02:52 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

In the UK, we call it "tomato ketchup" or "tomato sauce". Now that I come to think of it, I'm not sure which is used more often. I mean, if I'm buying it in a shop, I'll look for "H**** Tomato Ketchup" (phew, averted some inadvertent advertising there), but when I ask for it, I might ask for the... tomato ketchup, actually. Ah, looks like that wins. Except if I'm reverting to a childlike state, in which case it's "red sauce" (as opposed to "brown sauce", of course). I suspect it depends who you ask... Oh - I see that it does. Sorry, 80.46.160.59, I wrote this before I saw your response, and I can't be bothered to change it now! (Oh, but I suppose I should add that we never call it "catsup"!) -- Oliver Pereira 03:06 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

Oh, it's all too confusing. Now I've started thinking that I might call it "tomato sauce" more often after all... But why am I wasting my time thinking about such trivial things? Perhaps I should just go to bed... -- Oliver Pereira 03:08 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

I just added "catsup" as a redirect to "ketchup". I'm surprised you guys didn't already add it yet you insisted on having the traditional debate. Tjdw 03:16, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've never known anyone to call it Ketchup outside of TV shows.

In the USA, "tomato sauce" refers to what amounts to a very thin and unseasoned marinara sauce, the major ingredients are tomato, water, salt, with some added items that vary. Dogface 11:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nik nah 06:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Ketchup is not very popular in Australia. It's referred to as tomato sauce in Mcdonalds because they only sell ketchup there and no one is used to using the word ketchup so they call it tomato sauce. But in the supermarkets, there is definately a difference between the two: http://upcolaph2.colesmyer.com.au/fcgi-bin/sam.fcg?aab=VK584cS116&aaa=013&aac=3794&aag=All+Sauces

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Surprising no one's mentioned Heinz.

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That picture is pointless and should be removed. -- stewacide 07:46, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Regarding the new caption:

Tomato and ketchup. No, it's not really made this way.

... Ha! I know it's not quite appropriate in an encyclopedic context, but it's amusing, so I will look the other way and see if anyone else changes it. As for the picture... it's interesting. At least it's a lot more professional looking than someone's photo of a bottle of ketchup in their fridge. - Eisnel 00:11, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Please add recipes and nutrition analysis. Thank you. I've already added the fluid mechanics, vaccum dehydration and HDPE squeeze bottles. Please, let there be science!

[edit] Etymology

I think the word "茄汁" could have been a mistake.

Both the Oxford English Dictionary and Encyclopedia Britannica states that the Chinese words similar to "ketchup" means a brine of pickled fish. How the Canton word for tomato sauce fits in this picture I dont understand. There is obviously a serious mistake here. Could someone look into the Chinese signs, please?

If ketchup indeed originated in Chinam, with the meaning tomato sauce, this would indeed be sensational. Signifying that the chinese invented the tomato ketchup, and that the ketchup-variant made from pickled brine, came after. This must be completely wrong. The truth, I suspect, is that the first chinese words for ketchup means brine of pickled fish. -8. JUN 2006.

[edit] The Oxford English Dictionary

Ketchup: [app. ad. Chinese (Amoy dial.) kôechiap or kê-tsiap brine of pickled fish or shell-fish (Douglas Chinese Dict. 46/1, 242/1). Malay kchap (in Du. spelling ketjap), which has been claimed as the original source (Scott Malayan Wds. in English 64-67), may be from Chinese.

The Japanese kitjap, alleged in some recent dicts., is an impossible form for that language. (? error for Javanese.)]

Thats not a Japanese word, no. Probably Malay or Indonesian. c.f http://www.geocities.co.jp/Foodpia/6374/ketchup.htm

The dutch wikipedia believes the name comes from the indonesian soy sauce 'ketjap' (or kecap). (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketjap)

A sauce made from the juice of mushrooms, walnuts, tomatoes, etc., and used as a condiment with meat, fish, or the like. Often with qualification, as mushroom ketchup, etc.

• 1711 LOCKYER Acc. Trade India 128
  • Soy comes in Tubbs from Jappan, and the best Ketchup from Tonquin; yet good of both sorts are made and sold very cheap in China.
• 1748 MRS. HARRISON House-kpr.'s Pocket-bk. i. (ed. 4) 2,
  • I therefore advise you to lay in a Store of Spices, ... neither ought you to be without ... Kitchup, or Mushroom Juice.
• 1817 BYRON Beppo viii,
  • Buy in gross ... Ketchup, Soy, Chili~vinegar, and Harvey.
• 1840 DICKENS Barn. Rudge (1849) 91/1
  • Some lamb chops (breaded, with plenty of ketchup).
• 1874 COOKE Fungi 89
  • One important use to which several ... fungi can be applied, is the manufacture of ketchup.

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Catchup, Catsup: A liquor extracted from mushrooms, tomatoes, walnuts, etc., used as a sauce. (Common in N. Amer., but in the U.K. now only KETCHUP.)

• 1690 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Catchup,
  • a high East-India Sauce.
• 1730 SWIFT Paneg. on Dean Wks. 1755 IV. I. 142
  • And, for our home-bred british cheer, Botargo, catsup, and caveer.
• 1751 H. GLASSE Cookery Bk. 309
  • It will taste like foreign Catchup.
• 1832 Veg. Subst. Food 333
  • One ... application of mushrooms is ... converting them into the sauce called Catsup.
• 1845 E. ACTON Mod. Cookery v. (1850) 136 (L.)
  • Walnut catsup.
• 1862 Macm. Mag. Oct. 466
  • He found in mothery catsup a number of yellowish globular bodies.

[edit] The Encyclopaedia Britannica 16th ed, (1985)

Catsup also spelled Ketchup, spicy liquid condiment widely used in the United States and Great Britain.

U.S. catsup is a sweet puree of tomatoes, onions, and green peppers flavoured with vinegar and pickling spice that is eaten with meats, especially beef, and frequently with french fried potatoes (British chips); it is the universal condiment of fast-food sandwiches.

In Britain, as formerly in the United States, catsup signifies a spicy liquid based on mushrooms, unripe walnuts, or oysters; this catsup functions primarily as a seasoning for cooking.

The word derives from the Chinese ke-tsiap, a fish brine, probably by way of the Malaysian ketjap.

[edit] The Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th ed, (1911)

http://36.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KE/KETCHUP.htm (OCR copy, without proofreading)

KETCHUP, also written catsup and katchup (said to be from the Chinese kde-chiap or kS-tsiap, brine of pickled fish), a sauce or relish prepared principally from the juice of mushrooms and of many other species of edible fungi, salted for preservation and variously spiced. The juices of various fruits, such as cucumbers,, tomatoes, and especially green walnuts, are used as a basis of ketchup, and shell-fish ketchup, from oysters, mussels and cockles, is also made; but in general the term is restricted to sauces having the juice of edible fungi as their basis.

[edit] The Japanese Wikipedia

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B1%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%83%E3%83%97

ケチャップの語源は、福建語の「鮭汁 kechiap」であると考えられる。

The origin of "ketchup" was Fujian dialect's "鮭汁" (kechiap).

• 鮭: salmon in both Japanese and Chinese.
• 汁: juice in Chinese; soup in Japanese.
• Fujian (福建): the Province where Amoy City (廈門) is.

この場合の「鮭」は「塩辛」を指す方言字で、サーモンとは無関係。

In this case, "鮭" (salmon) does not mean salmon. It means salted food in that dialect.

I am not sure. I do not speak Amoy dialect.

「鮭汁」は小魚に塩を加えて煮てから発酵させ、濾過して取れるアミノ酸を豊富に含んだ液体、

" 'Salmon' juice" is the juice made from fish cooked in salty walter, fermented, and then filtered. It's a juice rich in amino acids.

すなわちタイのナンプラー、ベトナムのニョクマム、秋田のしょっつるの様な魚醤である。

Other related products in Vietnam and Japan.

これがマレー半島に伝わって「kichap」と呼ばれ

In the Malay peninsula, they called it "kichap".

[edit] Another Japanese theory

http://gogensanpo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/main1.html

ケチャップ

Ketchup

現在のケチャップです2003 年1月11日のNHK「ラジオ深夜便」で、リンボウ先生こと林望さんが、「ケチャップの語源は中国語の『茄汁』のようだ」とおっしゃっていました。おお、そうなのか、知らなかった！確かに中国語でトマトのことを「番茄」（ファンチエ）と言うぞ。中国語の「番茄の汁」がケチャップになったとしたら、ぴったりだ。ということで調べてみました。

According to Mr. Ling Wang (林望) (January 11, 2003, NHK), ketchup seems to have been "茄汁" (tomato juice) in Chinese.

• 茄: Chinese: eggplant; aubergine
• 蕃茄: Chinese: tomato (lit. babarian's eggplant)
• 番茄の汁: Japanese: tomato juice

『ランダムハウス英和大辞典第2版』（小学館、1994年）には、英語のketchupの語源はマレー語であり、その語源はさらに中国語の広東方言か廈門方言にさかのぼる。その単語は中国語（共通語）の「茄」＋「汁」と同根である、と書いてありました。

Randomhouse English-Japanese Dictionary 2nd edition (Shogakukan Inc., 1994): "茄汁" (tomato juice).

『世界大百科事典』（平凡社）の「ケチャップ」の項目（平野裕一郎執筆）には、「東南アジアから中国南部にかけての地域で古くから調味に用いられてきた塩蔵魚貝類の浸出液に起源を持つもののようで、中国福建省廈門周辺ではこうした魚醤をケチャップ（koe-chap）と呼ぶところがあり、類語は各地にあった。これが伝わったものか、18～19世紀のイギリスの料理書には、牡蠣、マッシュルーム、クルミ、キュウリのほか、魚や漿果類に食塩、酒、香辛料などを配した各種のケチャップが記載されている」、と書いてありました。

The World Encyclopedic Dictionary (Heibonsha Publishers Ltd.): fish sauce.

昔はいろんなケチャップがあったけれど、いまではケチャップと言えばトマトで作ったケチャップを指すようになったようです。魚醤に起源を持つとなるとケチャップの語源が「茄汁」であるというのは、ちょっとあやしくなります。

"茄汁" (tomato juice) becomes less convincing.

『オックスフォード・イングリッシュ・ディクショナリー（OED）第2版』には、英語のketchupの語源は中国語廈門方言のkoechiapあるいはke-tsiap（塩漬けにした魚介類の汁）である。マレー語のkechapはおそらく中国語に由来する、と書いてあります。

OED: fish sauce (see previous explaination).

周長楫編『廈門方言詞典』（江蘇教育出版社、1998年）を調べると、「【月＋奚】」（発音をかなで書けばクエ）という語が載っていました。そしてその意味は「塩漬けにした水産品」です。廈門方言と台湾語はどちらも中国語の閩南方言に属し、非常に近い関係にあります。そこで台湾語の辞書も調べてみました。

Zhou's (周長楫) Amoy Dialect Dictionary (Jiangsu Educational Press, 1988): pickled sea foods.

台湾総督府編『台湾語大辞典』（国書刊行会、原本1931年）に「コエ鮭」（小魚や蝦などを塩に漬けたもの。塩辛）という単語とともに、「コエチァプ 鮭汁」（肴に塩したとき出る汁）という単語が載っていました。

Taiwan's dialect is similar to Amoy's.

Taiwan Dialect Dictionary (1931, published by the pre-WW II Japanese occupation government): "鮭汁" ('salmon' juice).

OEDによれば、英語のketchupの初出は1711年です。そのころ廈門はまだ貿易港としては発展していません。当時の福建省南部で貿易港として栄えていたのは彰州です。彰州の言葉も廈門と同じ閩南方言です。でも廈門と少し発音が異なるところがあるようです。東方孝義編『台日新辞書』（台湾警察協会、1931年）によると、廈門の「コエ」は彰州の「ケ」に対応するのだそうです。もしそうなら彰州では「鮭汁」を「ケチャップ」と発音するはずです。英語のketchupにより近くなります。

Author's theory:

• Amoy was not an international harbor in 1711 (OED's first instance); another harbor "彰州" was.
  • Amoy dialect: "ko-i"
  • 彰州 dialect: "ke"
• English: kechup

『ランダムハウス』では英語のketchupの直接の語源はマレー語だとしていました。武富正一著『馬来語大辞典』（欧文社、1942年）を調べると、確かに「kechap」（ただしkechapのeは日本語のエではなくウに近い音）という単語が載っていました。その意味は「醤油、ソース」で、そして「中華語の転訛したる語」と書いてあります。どうもマレー語のkechapはもともと魚醤の意味だったものが、醤油に変化したようです。さて、英語の ketchupの直接の語源はマレー語でしょうか、それとも中国語でしょうか？中国語の閩南方言だと考えて不都合はないと思われるので、ここでは中国語であるとしておきます。

More about the Malay word. Too tired to translate this paragraph.

結論：中国語閩南方言「鮭汁（コエチャップ）」→ 英語「ketchup」→ 日本語「ケチャップ」。(2003.2.4)

Conclusion: Chinese dialect 鮭汁 -> English "ketchup" -> Japanese "ケチャップ" (ke-chia-pu) (February 4, 2003)

[edit] My opinion

As a native Chinese speaker, I always use "魚" (yu, please use French pronounciation) to describe "fish". "鮭" is only used for "salmon" (鮭魚). Personally, I think both theories are somewhat fishy. The usage of "鮭" in Taiwanese, as far as I know, is also very restricted. -- Toytoy 02:54, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

In Cantonese

• "茄"(short for tomato)http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/sound/ke4.wav
• "汁"(sauce) http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/sound/zap1.wav
• Search for more cantonese characters here: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/

In the 19th century most of the immigrants from china to the USA spoke cantonese. --Nik nah 08:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bottling

There really should be a section on bottling, such as when the modern glass and squeeze bottles were introduced and by whom and the like. I'd really like to know who to glare at for keeping glass bottles around :P. Really, glass ketchup bottles are a nuisance. We should boycott them. --Zeromaru 19:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is another technique for getting ketchup and similar (or merely thick enough) liquids out of bottles: contents must get near the opening before bottle is opened. This may involve keeping the bottle upsidedown (especially as some bottles are designed for that) or even hitting its cap while holding upsidedown. saimhe 12:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

No, plastic bottles are an abomination. We should shoot their inventor into the sun. Glass bottles forever!!!Dogface 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mushrooms!

It's natural that the article should concentrate on tomato ketchup, given it's prominence, but I feel there should be more mention/discussion of mushroom ketchup, as it is a prominent condiment, and to a prominent ketchup. 23:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. I believe that for non-English speakers the word "ketchup" may exclusively associate with tomatoes -- for example, I always wondered why ketchup is mentioned in Gathering Mushrooms by Clannad. saimhe 12:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sugar

There is no mention of the very high sugar content of ketchup, nor of how much of an impact this has in the condiment's overall "flavor profile".Dogface 11:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is there any non-Heinz picture to put here ?!

How come we have only pictures of Heinz products. There are other brands aren't they ?

[edit] Irrelevance

"Heinz have also stated that their iconic labels, attached to all their products "are printed by a label printer, the labels are printed in large batches at any one time"."

Unlike every other product in the world, whose labels are hand-drawn? What the hey is this piece of dubious (and incomprehensible) trivia doing in the Ketchup article? I'm deleting it, restore it if you can explain its relevance to ketchup or in fact anything at all. Unigolyn 00:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red sauce/red gravy?

Changed the intro which claims these terms are used "interchangeably" with tomato sauce in various countries. Certainly not the case in Australia where tomato sauce is the primary name, nor in New Zealand to my knowledge. If this is not accurate and all three terms are used in some countries, Australia at least should be deleted from this list. Fauxvegan 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In New Zealand, at least, "red sauce" is unheard of, "ketchup" is the American, sweeter (yes? or some sort of difference) kind, the sort you get in those little sachets in McDonalds. And not many other places. "Tomato sauce" is by far the most common term and item, and it's certainly not interchangeable with ketchup, or any of the others - they're definitely recognised as two different (but related, in that they're both made from tomatoes and have similar purposes) products. "Catsup" I'd never even heard until I saw it on The Simpsons, or "red sauce" until I saw it on some British sitcom where I'm sure it was some sort of affectation I didn't get. That section could definitely be clearer. Actually, this whole article is pretty poorly put together, with vague generalisations and Americocentricity. It could do with a tidy-up or a rewrite. 210.54.98.215 08:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bitter? How?

The article claims that tomato ketchup includes all five basic tastes. It clearly has ingredients for salt, sweet (sugar), sour (vinegar), and savory (tomato). None of the other ingredients are bitter, and I'm not sure whether it's even possible to have sour (acid) and bitter (alkali) tastes together in a blended product. One of the two should convert to salt upon mixing. Bradd 15:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I found this in the article at gladwell.com, reporting the results of a formal taste test: "For Heinz, the critical flavor components—vinegar, salt, tomato I.D. (over-all tomato-ness), sweet, and bitter—were judged to be present in roughly equal concentrations, and those elements, in turn, were judged to be well blended." That would support the claims of all five flavors, in balance. Still, I'm suspicious, partly because the chemistry of it doesn't make sense, partly because ketchup doesn't taste bitter at all to me personally. (And why would you want it to taste bitter? Bitterness is nigh-universally unpleasant.) Bradd 15:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urban Legend?

Is there any truth to something i heard. It didn't seem to mention it in the article. Was Ketchup was sold in the 1830s as medicine? 203.222.110.46 06:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No, of course not! It was a well-known sauce used with food. And it was something one made at home, not something one bought from a snake oil salesman. And almost the defining characteristic of patent medicines was the weird names their makers gave them, so as to stand out in people's minds. Sorry, this makes no sense. Zsero 07:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cold ketchup... Grosser than Gross

My wife and I constantly fight over whether or not to put Ketchup in the fridge. I hate cold ketchup, she loves driving my crazy; is there any actually evidence I can throw at her for why we should not put this culinary life blood in the refrigerator?

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.174.25.7 (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Is botcholism a good enough reason for you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.24 (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] NO MENTION OF BANANA KETCHUP

I have to say that this is the most incomplete factoid about ketchups I know. What about the Banana Ketchup? where did it originate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.9.74.10 (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Ketchup/Catsup

Is it me or is there a difference between ketchup and catsup? I am utterly convinced that there is, as is my friend? can any one enlighten us? philb 15:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's you. "Catsup" is just a different spelling of the same word. It's pronounced "ketchup". Zsero 16:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! :-) philb 09:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)