Talk:Kingdom of England

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Should this redirect to England and Wales ? Morwen 15:42, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

No. "England and Wales" is a term for the legal unity of England and Wales, which still exists.

The "Kingdom of England" is the former kingdom that existed until 1707, which included Wales for two centuries.

Contents 1 Elizabeth 2 Map 3 arms 4 The title of Queen (and King) of England has however been out of use since 1707 5 End of the English state? 6 National Coat of Arms and National Flag

[edit] Elizabeth

Anyone object to me pointing out that the current Queen is a succesor to the Kings and Queens of England AND Scotland?

• No major objection, but I'm not sure it's relevant for this article. Maybe that's something to put at Kingdom of Scotland?--JW1805 16:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map

It seems people are inisting on a wildly inappropriate map being on the page. The map shows the borders of present-day England. However, from 1536 to 1707, the Kingdom included Wales. Prior to 1536, the border between the Kingdom of England, and the Welsh areas, was not the same as it was now - the border was set at the same time as the Kingdom annexed Wales. This means that the border shown in the map has never been the actual border of the Kingdom with Wales. Morwen - Talk 16:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• It isn't "wildly inappropriate". Sure the borders may have been different before 1536, but this map shows the most recent border. Other countries have had boundary changes, but the infoboxes only have one map. As for including Wales, the England article map doesn't have Wales, even though legally, even today, England includes Wales. It is generally understood what "England", "Wales", and "England and Wales" mean. --JW1805 ^(Talk) 17:29, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] arms

Why are the quartered arms of England and France being used for this page? Throughout much of England's history, it is true, the Kings of England used the arms pictured here (or its predecessor with "France ancient", azure seme-de-lis or); but that's because they claimed the throne of France. I'm going to swap in the English arms. Doops | talk 21:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• The arms of England have changed throughout its history. These were the last arms used by the Kingdom of England, therefore it would be logical to use these. Astrotrain 13:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Image:J1&2,C1&2 Arms.png

• Actually, some would argue that those first arms were the last used by the Kingdom of England. Did England become part of Great Britain with James, or with Anne (the second arms are postulated as the first held by Great Britain)? Regardless, Anne used the Jacobean arms before the (pro-Hanoverian) Parliament adapted to the Stuart practice of calling their collective island dominion "Great Britain". Regardless of Whiggish Parliamentary perceptions, the succession of James is to this day considered the "Union of the Crowns". That in my mind, makes these arms I provide the first of Great Britain and not the last of England. James himself called it Great Britain, while the Royal website begins the series of Great Britain at James--as do all genealogical charts. Cromwellians be damned, because the status of a kingdom rests on its Crown and not its Parliament--there is no British Republic (the US doesn't count, right?)! There are other reasons behind this madness. There is absolutely nobody from the middle or lower class with royal descent from King James, while the upper class calls itself British--totally anathema to those not of this social status. I think it can probably be further proved that there is nobody from the lesser classes with Protestant Royal ancestors--just Roman Catholic kings (am I right or wrong?). IP Address 13:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The title of Queen (and King) of England has however been out of use since 1707

I'm not sure if this sentence is entirely accurate. Perhaps we should specify official or formal usage. Glennh70 01:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Monarchs have informally been ascribed these titles since 1603, but calling James I of England is just as retroactively like somebody calling Philip I of Spain "King of Aragon" instead. The constituent countries of Castile and Aragon have not been separated since Philip Habsburg, neither have England and Scotland been separated since James Stuart. This politique of the Stuarts was fought harshly by Parliament, but it is true that it was no different from the Habsburgs--which is why the practice was hated. Reinterpretation of history and that liberal spin of Whiggery descending from Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester (via Oliver Cromwell) does nothing but brainwash schoolchildren into believing otherwise. The revisionist interpretations I am talking about, are the advancement of Protestantism in the British Isles and this is further explained in the omission of King Philip from the Royal website beside Mary--unlike the equal status shown for William and Mary. As a descendent of those Conservative recusants who had priest holes, I will not give in to Liberal Protesant bigotry. There was a United Kingdom of Spain, which preceded in idea a United Kingdom of Great Britain...a Union of the Crowns for both countries. But keep on believing in the Black Legend. IP Address 14:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End of the English state?

This whole article, and dozens like it, are fundamentally flawed. They keep insisting that the English state came to an end in 1707, but nothing could be further from the truth. All that happened in that year was the annexation of Scotland, and the adoption of the name Great Britain (which had already been in use for a century). All the English institutions survived, and survive to this day. TharkunColl 08:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

So, for that matter, did the Scottish ones, if you mean by institutions legal systems, church settlements and the like. I think it far too strong to say that Scotland was 'annexed' in 1707, which would make the Union the exact equivalent of that imposed by Cromwell. I do, however, take your point; it is nonsense to contend that England somehow ceased to exist after 1707, an argument that takes as its point of departure a very narrow and legalistic view of political facts. The simple truth is that the union of 1707-and the later union of 1801-was never a combination of equals: England for whole series of factors was bound to be the dominant partner. It was the accepted form right into the twentieth century to refer to the United Kingdom as England-even Prime Ministers like Henry Campbell Bannerman, Arthur Balfour and Ramsay MacDonald, all born in Scotland, did so. Rcpaterson 02:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Subnational capacity for government did not have any chance of dissolving the Union; it was not independent but confederate. Lord Loxley 01:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh?Enzedbrit 01:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

See below. Lord Loxley 15:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Coat of Arms and National Flag

Maybe some consensus should form as to the proper coat of arms and flag which represents the entity in this article. If England continued with the Stuarts, then those emblems such as the Union flag and Stuart arms should be represented. This would cause conflict with the Kingdom of Scotland article, for them to both use them and not be the same country. If England ended with the Tudors and Scotland ended with the Stewarts, then the present symbols may remain. See Talk:Kingdom_of_Great_Britain#1603-1707 for the background discussion on this. Lord Loxley 15:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)