Talk:Kingdom of Kongo

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Contents 1 Requested move 1.1 Voting and discussion 2 Before colonization 3 Compliments 4 Naming conventions 5 My Bad 6 Much Love 7 Kongo names

[edit] Requested move

Kongo Empire → Kingdom of Kongo : Appears to be a more commonly used name.

[edit] Voting and discussion

Please add  * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~"

• Support as proposer. David Kernow 21:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved. Please check and fix redirs per Special:Whatlinkshere/Kongo_Empire - I will hit them if I have time, but don't wait on me to do it - thanks. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, David Kernow 18:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Before colonization

We had this discussion on one of the pages of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It is very eurocentric to center African history articles around the time of contact with Europe. So, like on the DRC pages, I will change "Before colonization" to "Early History", which is a bit better. Themalau 10:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compliments

Much love and praise to the folks behind this article. It has developed leaps and bounds from what it was. Keep up the good work. Scott Free 20:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with scott. This is a fantastic article. The most written on an african history subject well done!!! Caribbean1 09:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

Revisions of 15 December give the impression that the kings of Kongo bore only Kikongo names and took Portuguese names upon taking office, likewise it gives the impression that ordinary Kongo people had Kikongo names and took Portuguese names later (for example with Beatriz Kimpa Vita). The evidence on naming is sometimes slender for common people, although many travelers of the seventeenth century attest that everyone was baptized and had a Christian name (take from Portuguese names), but also that they continued using Kikongo names. It is likely that parents gave these names simultaneously.

The elite clearly took Christian names soon after their birth and not at coronation. This is confirmed by correspondence and other documents generated by Kongo authorities in which Christian names are routinely used for people before they come to power and for those who never ruled. An early example is the judicial inquest of Diogo I in 1550 in which a number of people are mentioned incidentally usually but not always by Christian names. Clearly at this point people routinely used all their names, both Portuguese and Kikongo.

For naming practices, see John Thornton, "Central African Names and Naming Practices" William and Mary Quarterly

[edit] My Bad

Good looking out. I was under the impression that the european names were simply throne names. The KiKongo and Portuguese names do appear to be separate, however. I will go back and put "alias" instead of "born" before the end of the week. Thanks. Scott Free 00:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Much Love

Much props to whoever added the "political and social structure of the 16th and 17th century" portion and the "kongo army" portion. this was much needed for the article and very informative. i moved these portions of the article up since i thought they set a good tone for understanding the kingdom. i removed the "16th and 17th century" from the title since the overall structure seems to have stayed consistent throughout the kingdom's existence. But it is your portion so if yuo want to move it somewhere else that's your choice. anywho, good job adding to this very interesting article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4shizzal (talk • contribs) 15:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC). Scott Free 22:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kongo names

Thanks to the others who have edited the king list and names of the Kongo kings. There is a problem with the present solution, however. Using "alias" for the Kikongo names misses the actual usage of Kikongo names in the period. Most Kongo documents use just Christian names, but there are still plenty of instances where full names are used. They have a definite way of giving these names: Afonso I Mvemba a Mvemba, the name, the number and the Kikongo name. It is common, and the names in the king list ought to be given this way, they clearly thought of their names in this way. Anywhere that full names are given, including biographies, should employ this form. I want to stress that the Kongo of those days were very proud of both their Christian religion and their African background, including their language (as they are today). They used their Christian names formally when writing in Portuguese, even in internal correspondence (not directed to Europeans) but they also used and always had Kikongo names. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beepsie (talk • contribs) 23:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC).