Talk:Kingdom of Sardinia

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A map would be useful.

Got a public domain one from 1839. --Wetman 20:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Historical innacuracy 2 Kingdom of Sardinia 3 Kingdoms or giudicati ? 4 Merge Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia into this page

[edit] Historical innacuracy

'Napoleon III didn't keep his promises to Cavour. Napoleon seized Lombardy. In 1860, however, Sardinia gained Lombardy from France in exchange for Savoie and Nice.'

This is nonsense, Louis-Napoleon didn't keep his promise to fight the Austrians until all of the Kingdom of Lombardia-Veneto was in their hands, but this is not made clear. After the bloody battles of Magenta and Solferino he got anxious about dragging the war out and made peace. Austria refused outright to cede any territory to the Savoyards. The French agreed with Cavour that they would accept the cession of Lombardia to France from Austria and then immediately cede it again to Piemonte-Sardigna. Which they then did, in 1859, not 1860, Napoleon never 'seised' anything they merely used France as a go between in the peace deal to 'save face' for Austria.

Because the had reneged on his deal with Cavour (in which they had secretely agreed that Napoleon could have Nissa and Savoie, territories the French had long lusted after in return for getting all of Lombardia-Veneto) he allowed Vittorio-Emmanuelle II to keep Savoie and Nissa aswell as Lombardia. But in the following months (early 1860) most of north-central Italy revolted against their rulers, Firenze, Modena, Parma and the Romagna all held plebiscites which were overwhelmingly pro-Savoyard.

Whether these were real or not didn't matter but they all joined Piemonte-Sardigna. This allarmed Louis-Napoleon as he didn't want a strong Savoy on his border and so demanded that if they wanted to keep the new lands they would have to cede Savoie and Nissa. Cavour then agreed to cede them after (most likely fake) plebiscites showed around 90% wanted to join France.

I don't have an account or know anything about editing articels but this point about Napoleon really needs changing. - SeeK100

[edit] Kingdom of Sardinia

..In the 19th century the alternative name Sardinia-Piedmont came in use.... That's not true: until 1861 was always called, officially, Kingdom of Sardinia. --Shardan 17:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ehmm… ! I’m sorry, officially, Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont has never existed, as you can see here: [1] if you got an official source whit that name, please show it.

The official name has allways been Kingdom of Sardinia (Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae) and the crown that kings of Sardinia - (later kings of Italy) - had on their head, it was the same crown that pope Boniface VIII put on the head of James II of Aragon in 1297. Please shows official sources if you wont change the name.--Shardan 14:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdoms or giudicati ?

According Mr Francesco Cesar Casula, one of the most important italian experts about Sardinia mediaeval history, in his book La Storia di Sardegna and after in the other Breve storia di Sardegna ( ISBN 88-7138-065-7), at page 85, writing about Kingdom (or giuducato) of Calari, says: come gli altri tre giudicati, il regno di Calari era anch’ esso uno Stato sovrano e perfetto, perchè aveva la facoltà di stipulare accordi internazionali ...(...) ( in en.... like the other three giudicati, the kingdom (it: Regno) of Calari was a sovereign and perfect State because he was able to stipulate international treaties...(…). I think that in Wikipedia , according to Mr Casula studies , we can affirm that the giudicati they were real kingdoms. --Shardan 12:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Could we not speak then with equal correctness of the regno di Monaco or the regno di Liechtenstein? There's no reason to apply "kingdom" in English to an independent state that does not have a king; it does not serve the Wikipedia reader. --Wetman 13:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You should cite the sources in the article, too. Not just the talk page. That said, regno should not always be translated "kingdom," but more often "realm" or "sovereign state." There are many sovereignties which are not royal and the giudicati were not royal. In short, I agree with Wetman. Srnec 18:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Monaco is a Principato (in French: Principautè) and is not a Kingdom; idem for Liechtenstein and Andorra. The ‘’Judike’’ is a King, not a prince.

To know more (if you know Italian language), on it.Wiki you find:

• [2],
• [3],
• [4],
• [5],
• [6],

and on en.Wiki:

• [[7]],
• [[8]]

Anyway, I'm not agree about realm, Kingdom is the right word --Shardan 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I am agree about realm. Well chosen, Srnec. --Wetman 00:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to admit to Shardan, at least, that I am aware of usage in both Italian and English of "king"/"re" and "kingdom"/"regno" to describe these identities, but I would not consider that the current or historic scholarly consensus on how best to translate these terms (giudice and giudicato) if the terms are even seen as requiring translation, which is not usual. Thankyou, Wetman. Srnec 05:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean Srnec, and I understand complexity in translation giudice and giudicato, but I’m still not agree about realm: surely you know English better than me, but, IMHO, realm got something about legend (‘’the realm of fancy’’) , or something related to a very ancient kingdom that, because of a lack of trustable sources, is more fantasy than history. Anyway, if you want to use realms to indicate the four Sardinian Kingdoms, Wikipedia should use the same term to indicate all the contemporary kingdoms in Europe, starting from X century. However, I don’t really want to create any edit war about, for me is enough to have changed tribal territories, like somebody, few edits ago, has describe the four independents kingdoms.It's OK for all the rest. By --Shardan 22:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia into this page

When Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia is searched, the official name of the country is shown as Kingdom of Sardinia and discusses the same information as on this page. The two topics are almost exactly the same, and there is no need for two pages. Information on Piedmont-Sardinia should be part of this article.

I was incorrect, Piedmont-Sardinia IS a different state. This page should focus on the true Kingdom of Sardinia then, not the formal one which was ruled by Piedmont. I have already begun converting the page to concentrating on the pre-Piedmont-control Kingdom of Sardinia.

I merged them. The state is really the same thing right down from 1297 to 1861. Srnec 21:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)