Talk:Laïcité

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Laïcité article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	France Portal Laïcité is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France and Monaco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list for Laïcité:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

	To-do list for Laïcité:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do:

Contents 1 Same? 2 Etymology 3 The same as secularism? 4 PACS 5 picture 6 historical laicization

[edit] Same?

All this to basically say that "laïcité" is pretty much the same thing as "separation of church and state"? I don't see the point of the lengthy explanation. A hyperlink to separation of church and state would suffice. What a waste of wiki space. If it were up to me the entire article would be replaced with a single sentence:

"Laïcité" is the term of preference in France to essentially describe the concept of "La séparation des églises et de l'état," i.e. "separation of church and state," while in English the latter form is preferred. Period. Loomis51 23:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

While the two concepts are quite similar, I believe it would be a mistake to argue no distinction exists. Separation of Church and State is a legal notion that argues no religion can be recognized by the state nor can persons be discriminated based on faith. Laicite includes much of this; but is (to put it crudely) more aggressively secular. Following laicite, not only is religion separated from the government, but from all public spaces--esp. those shared by the govt.

It is this understanding that allows the French Gov't to ban headscarves in (public) schools. Public schools occupy a national space that is shared by the gov't and therefore for any religious expression to be allowed is to violate the neutral public space.

This is also paralleled by a cultural norm, which views all expressions of religion outside of the home or place of worship as to be at least mildly offensive.

This French quote sums it up; 'to be a Frenchman on the street and a Jew at home.'

--Ampersand 03:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

PS i suppose it is possible to argue Laicite is more cultural than legal--but that argument is beyond me. (i also fail to see how it is reconciled with the fact that French law is fine with banning religious symbols.)

[edit] Etymology

Is laicite derived from laa - ik in Arabic?

From the Greek laikos (the people). The English lay is surely related.

[edit] The same as secularism?

Why must everyone keep saying "laïcité"? The word can be directly translated to say "secularity" (or "secularism"), and I think that it would be more convenient and readable if Wikipedia would stick with the translation.

I think that if you look at the current article on secularism, you won't perhaps be as convinced that laïcity is directly translated, and that this article should be merged with the other. SweetLittleFluffyThing

There is already an article on secularism. However, secularism means, according to my dictionary: "a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations", whereas laïcité is not about the rejection of religion from society, but the rejection of religion from the political and educative space, and more generally the rejection of people pushing their religion on others. "Secularism", to me, seems to imply some kind of ideology pushing people to cease to have religious beliefs. In fact, a government endorsement of agnosticism or atheism would go against the principles of "laïcité", whereas it seems to fit within "secularism". David.Monniaux 18:41, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Secularism is not, and never has been, a concept that includes hostility towards religion. Turkey is a secular government. A McDonald's restaurant is secular establishment. See the following definitions: American Heritage Dictionary definition and Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition. Your "dictionary" (which I am assuming is merely a personal understanding gleaned from the usage of someone else) is incorrect. This article either needs to be merged with secularism or be labeled, as recommended below, "Secularism in France." I am inclined to do the latter. Simoes 00:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, just stating that the article is about secularism in France seems adequateSimoes 15:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate that "laïcité" is probably a more accurate word than "secularism." But the reason that everyone in the English world says that Turkey is "a secular nation" instead of "a laïc nation" is that "laïc" obscures more than it clarifies. I know what the word means, because I follow the politics of France closely, but Joe Blow looking up an encyclopedia entry on "Politics in France" would probably be irritated to be forced to look up this article. Perhaps "GNU/Linux" is more accurate than "Linux," but saying it won't make someone better informed about what it means.

To be honest, I've never heard of "laïcité" being used anywhere but France. Turkey is secular because its laws are unrelated to religion, not because they ban it. France is probably special because its extreme secularism can be misconstrued as state-sponsored atheism. On the other hand, I feel that accuracy needs to give in to clarity this time.--68.227.206.48 02:02, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm quite at a loss by what you claim is France's secularism, and wonder who in good faith (and with decent information) could construe France's attitude as state-sponsored atheism. As I explained, secularism, according to my dictionary, rejects religion (which sounds to me like a hint of state-sponsored atheism or agnosticism). In contrast, the French government is prevented by law from taking any stance on religion per se, and in practice never does so. (It does take stances on some societal manifestations of religion, but that's fairly different from taking stances on religious doctrine).

Also, there are some concepts that do not translate well. I suspect that Americans would find it weird that "sheriff" would be translated to "gendarmerie officer", even though both jobs significantly overlap (i.e. policing rural areas, for the most part).

We may rename the page "Secularism in France" with subtitle "laïcité". David.Monniaux 02:08, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not think it would fit well in the naming scheme, which is to keep it simple. But well...as long as the redirect is kept... David, don't we also use the term laicite to talk about the turkish state ? SweetLittleFluffyThing

There is the distinction between "laicite" and "laicism". The former is the French modus of the Church and state relationship as it has developed. The latter is actually the movement or ideology (first in the original French revolution, the attempted Dechristianization, and than in the late 19th century) that originated this development. This movement was staunchly anti-clerical, which basically means anti-Catholic, and which led to a state-sponsored (not atheism, but:) anti-Catholicism. There were attempts both from keeping practising Catholics from state positions (quite successful) and also of "revolutionizing" the Church internally (nationalzing cathedrals, changing Church structure etc, but without success). This however mellowed during the World Wars and especially after the 1945, when there was for some time a Christian-Democratic party called MRP (Movement Republican-Popular). The result is the current, mostly peaceful "laicite".

Turkey however adopted the aggressive form of early "Laicism", so it's not so much separating religion and state. It's rather the state fighting traditional Islam's influence on society and politics while at the same time dominating the major religion (Islam), while disregarding minortiy religions.

Str1977 11:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

So basically laïcité is the same as secularism, except it's a French word. Why does Wikipedia have separate articles for the two?

This article should either be merged with secularism, or renamed "Secularism in France". FilipeS 21:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we should merge the two. Laïcité is not simply a descriptor for "the type of secularism that is operative in France", but an ideology in itself (and as such may or may not reflect the type of "secularism in France"). In other words I think we should merge laïcité with secularism, and if there is an interest in a seperate entry "Secularism in France", then it can be created. The second article would be more specific about how laïcité is practiced in France (or not practiced in such instance that it isn't). What would people think of an official proposal to merge?PelleSmith 23:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PACS

Christine Boutin, who openly argued on religious grounds against homosexual domestic partnerships (PACS)

This sentence is wrong: the PACS is not only for homosexuals, but also for heterosexuals. This should be made clear. 81.57.225.31 10:38, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The sentence is right. She argued on religious grounds against homosexual relationships and their acknowledgement in the gender-neutral PACS. David.Monniaux 12:35, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] picture

is a good thing. Deal with it however you may please.

[edit] historical laicization

I remember very well from my French schoolbooks that somewhere in the XIXth century, the removal of the crosses that were hanged in every public school raised a lot of fuss in France. I think this should be mentionned somewhere.Jules LT 22:32, 26 August 2005 (UTC)