Talk:Latin Union
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[edit] Philippines and Latin Union
I'm Filipino and Filipino should stop hating stopping Spanish and Spaniards and anything related to Spanish colonization of the country (membership blah blah). Yes Philippines is part of Latin Union, please do not forget that we have a creole language called "Chavacano" in Zamboanga overall at least half a million people speak this Spanish based language. I have no clue why some of us hate that anything related to Spain, is terrible and bad or whatever. Its weird how we all adapted American cultures and language yet its also colonial influence. Past is past ok and lets not forget but we have to move on this is part of our culture.
[edit] The Philippines
Questions regarding why the Philippines is part of the Latin Union should be forwarded to the organisation itself, but for now as stated on its official site, the Philippines is indeed part of the Latin Union (a good enough to leave it amongst the other countries in the list). Tagalog may not be purely Latin-based but the language is heavily influenced by Spanish so this might be the reason why the country is still part of the organisation. Another is the cultural aspect, which is too broad to be discussed in here. Why not Equatorial Guinea and East Timor? One can assume that since East Timor is a new country they have yet to apply for membership. I wouldn't have a clue regarding Equatorial Guinea's position (it's official languages are Spanish & French) but both countries are definitely worth the mention. -- Erehtsti 00:12, 6 November 2004
- I have removed the last paragraph under Member States for having false information. The Philippines has not been expelled, nor has Equatorial Guinea joined the Latin Union, as cited in the Latin Union's website (Source) Erehtsti 22:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] unwarranted reversions, false info
According to the Latin Union's site, specifically the Member States section: Phillipines (en Espanol) The Phillipines not only is a member State of the Latin Union, but English, Spanish and Tagalog are official languages. I am reverting the page, per consensus, as the anonymous contributor who is insisting it's not a part of the Latin Union is not bothering to discuss. This will be referred to a Higher Power if unwarranted, non consensual changes continue.Pedant 04:27, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)
[edit] More false information with the Philippines
I deleted this paragraph since it is poorly worded and incorrect:
"All the member states of the Latin Union have the Latin derived language, except Philippines. Philippines was in Latin Union because of Spanish, since Spanish is a Romance language. However now, Spanish is not an official language anymore in Philippines. So Philippines is unsuitable for Latin Union. Not like some people who tries to act smart that Spanish is still official in Philippines. This is nonsence."
nonsence?
I also deleted the below.--Jondel 04:07, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note: Philippines had been expelled from Latin Union in 2004. It is because it has no relations with the Latin Union. The official language of Philippines are Tagalog and English. Tagalog is an Austronesian language, English is a Germanic language. In the Latin Union, Philippines used English to communicate with other Latin Union members that led to the agony of most Latin Union members. Since Philippines has lost its "Spanish" official status, the members of the Latin Union has decided to expel Philippines perpetually from 2004 onwards.
- Kindly cite your source , the email from the secretariat of the Latin Union below says otherwise.--Jondel 00:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Removing Philippines
I am removing the Philippines. We have a Spanish derived language though, Chabacano language.--Jondel 11:11, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The official site, lists the Philippines as a member. Erehtsti 01:43, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- I would be happy if the Philippines was a member. One of our languages I believe is intelligible to Spanish, Chabacano. However, I really don't think we are a member. I believe the website needs to update the list. There are 2 lists in one, the Philippines is listed , in the other, it is not(all the other countries are listed). In BTW, there are still Spanish speakers, including myself, in the Philippines. I'll see if there is an e-mail contact on the website to clarify. --Jondel 02:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- That would be a good idea.. I also just noticed on the site that East Timor (amongst a few others) is listed in the news section, so maybe an official update from them would help. Erehtsti 02:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- OK, I just sent the e-mail ( to dpel@unilat.org ), I 'll send anouther follow up on East Timor. --Jondel 02:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] To anonymous 165.21.154.117
Kindly cite your source. Please don't make unilateral edits, especially if you choose to be anonymous. Pls use or do make a user account. Behaviour like this is hard to tolerate. I've sent an e-mail now to the Latin Union. If you don't cite sources, the statements you put become opinons and have to be reverted. --Jondel 04:12, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This is the same person that prompted me to start this topic discussion, hoping I could get him/her to cite the source. That was late last year and yet we still get these random edits once in a while. I have also sent an e-mail and will share any information that does come by my way. Erehtsti 06:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1) Pls understand that there are frequent vandalizers,and people with vested interested but unsubstantiated info. Thus users are prioritized over anonymous accounts. Wikipedians typically have deleted edits by anonymous accounts.
2) I did a search on the Spanish yahoo using these key words:
2004 UNIÓN LATINA Filipinas
These words appear: 2004, año del cincuentenario
Also the listing shows the Philippines.
Link from spanish yahoo:
http://www.pliegosdeopinion.net/pdo8/pensamiento/iniciativas/unionlatina.htm
3) Lets wait for the reply from the union.(2 - 3 days?)--Jondel 07:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have recieved the reply(to be pasted below) confirming membership. In fairness however, the site says that Spanish is still an official languages which it is not. Still, if the site says the Philippines is a member then it is.--Jondel 00:03, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] E-mail
----- Original Message -----From: <A title=dpel@unilat.org href="mailto:dpel@unilat.org">Uni Latina</A>To: <A title=martinez@dempa.co.jp href="mailto:martinez@dempa.co.jp">John Martinez</A>Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:47 PMSubject: Re: Las Filipinas,Timor Oriental so n un miembro de La Uniﾃｳn Latina?Estimado Ser,
Tal como se lo aclaraba en elcorreo electrico anterior Filipinas es pais miembre de la Uni latina desde 1954. Dos nuevos estados, Timor Leste y Andorra, adhirieron a la Uni latina en diciembre 2004.
Atentamente,
-------------------------------------------------------
Dolores ﾁlvarez
Directora adjunta
Uni Latina
DPEL
131, rue du Bac
75007 Par﨎 -Francia
tel. (33 1) 45 49 60 60
fax. (33 1) 45 44 46 97
correo-e: dpel-ul@unilat.org
<A href="http://dpel.unilat.org/" eudora="autourl">http://dpel.unilat.org
</A>-------------------------------------------------------
Le 04:02 14/03/2005, vous avez 馗rit:
<X-SIGSEP>・ｿ
Estimado Seﾃｱor,
Quisiera saber si Timor del Este(Timor-Leste, Timor Oriental) es un miembro
de La Uniﾃｳn Latina. Quisiera saber si hay nuevos miembros y si suprimieron a
algunos miembros por informacion para el wikipedia del Web site (en.wikipedia.org).
Gracias,
John(Juan) Martinez
(Jondel en el Wikipedia inglﾃｩs)
Esteemed sir,
I would like to know if East Timor is a member of the Latin Union.
I would like to know if there are new members and if some members were deleted
for the website wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org).
Thank you ,
John Martinez
(Jondel in the English Wikipedia)</X-SIGSEP>-------------------------------------------------------
Dolores ﾁlvarez
Directora adjunta
Uni Latina
DPEL
131, rue du Bac
75007 Par﨎 -Francia
tel. (33 1) 45 49 60 60
fax. (33 1) 45 44 46 97
correo-e: dpel-ul@unilat.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Ahh.. Very interesting. It's curious that Canada isn't a part of this Latin Union. --Chris 03:35, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- They should be. Quebecanians would probably want it. If states could apply, maybe New Mexico. --Jondel 04:02, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Good, that clears it up. I have yet to receive a reply to my e-mail though. Erehtsti 08:12, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I forgot to ask about Equitorial Guinea.--Jondel 08:51, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- Hmm, I think I sent mine to the French offices of the Latin Union. They were probably horrified with my French. Malta and Andorra are listed on the news section of the site (http://unilat.org/actu.html) I asked about this in my e-mail, I'll give it a few more days, hopefully they will reply. That section of the site also highlights Argentina, the Order of Malta and the Holy See as 'Permanent Observers'. Erehtsti 12:22, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Je voudrai etudier francais aussie. Maybe we should make a list of all countries in question then send once and for all. --Jondel 07:40, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, that's a good idea, we could start by clearing up the 'Observateur Permanent' list (Argentina, Malta, Holy See) and maybe from there ask about ones that are not listed as members but do qualify. A good reference would be the Community of Portuguese Language Countries and La Francophonie, or looking up the Spanish, Portuguese and French colonial empires is always an option. If I recall correctly, Italy did have a few colonies in Africa. Erehtsti 21:27, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, a seperate section would be good. e.g. List of countries requiring confirmation .After 1 or two weeks, or in good time, send an e-mail .--Jondel 07:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] List of countries requiring confirmation
Whether already a member or should be a member.(Please remove any confirmed member.)
[edit] Members/Observers
[edit] Potential Members(?)
- Algeria
AndorraConfirmed member- Belgium
- Benin
- Burkina Faso
- Burundi
- Cameroon
- Canada
- Central African Republic
- Chad
- Comoros
Costa RicaConfirmed Member- Djibouti
El SalvadorConfirmed Member- Equatorial Guinea
- Guinea
- Haiti
- Luxembourg
- Madagascar
- Mali
- Mauritania
- Mauritius
- Rwanda
- Switzerland
- Seychelles
- Tunisia
- Vanuatu
Why are Tunisia and Algeria potential members, but not Morroco where the influence of French is just as strong, and there also a strong Spanish influence? About the Philippines, I think somebody should make a comment about religion. The Philippines are a catholique majority country, which is why some philippinos feel associated with other latin countries which mostly catholique. On the other hand, the latin influence in Algeria, Morroco and Tunisia is much stronger - french is a defacto offical language in all three countries, but retain a strong muslim identity and as such do not identify with other latin countries.
I added a few more countries to the list, most of which has French as their official language. I have also yet to receive a reply from my earlier e-mail to the French offices of the Latin Union, so I guess I'll leave all the correspondences to you (since you were successful with yours). Also, don't you think it would help the Latin Union to have their site in English as well? I have a feeling that the rest of the English speaking population of the Internet (or the world) doesn't know that it exists. Erehtsti 13:59, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok. I'll make the letter and the suggestion. --Jondel 06:43, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- I've yet to receive a reply from the first email that I sent =\ Do you think it's a good idea to include a list of potential members in the main article? Or would that just seem like redundant information? Erehtsti 06:07, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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I think it would be good for the list to remain here. Besides that may invite more POV arguments and confusion. I still didn't receive any reply. --Jondel 00:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, I suppose we can leave the current article as it is until we hear from the Latin Union. Erehtsti 17:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
According to that website, membership is open to any country that satisfies any one of the following criteria:
* Linguistic criteria
o Official language derived from Latin
o Latin-derived language used in education
o Latin-derived language commonly used in the mass media or in daily life
* Linguistic/cultural criteria
o Existence of significant literature in a Latin-derived language
o Press and publication in Latin-derived language
o Television with a strong proportion of the programming in a Latin-derived language
o Radio widely broadcast in a Latin language
* Cultural criteria
o Direct or indirect inheritance of the legacy of Ancient Rome, to which the state remains faithful and which it perpetuates mainly through the education of Latin
o Cultural education of Latin-derived foreign languages
o Interchanges with other Latin countries
o Societal organization, particularly in the legal plane, based on respect for fundamental liberties, the general principles of human rights and democracy, tolerance and freedom of religion).
I think that the Philippines more or less satisfies the details of the last 2 of the 3 criteria. I'm not too sure about the linguistic criteria though. It is undeniable that Spanish has heavily influenced Tagalog, Visayan and nearly all the other major languages and their very many numerous dialects. Thst much is obvious to me just by hearing my Filipino friends talking in Tagalog. There is also Chavacano, which is basically Spanish with many native words added in. Also, nearly all of their major historical documents are in Spanish, like their Constitution written in 1898 and Jose Rizal's major literature works, etc etc. Law and Real Estate Documents are also still written in Spanish, if I'm not mistaken. Filipino culture, while of course has Malay and Chinese influences, is still overwhelmingly Hispanic. And when sources say that nowadays, only 2% of people in the Philippines speak Spanish, all of the sources I've read have stated that they're only counting native speakers. They don't take into account the bilingual/trilingual Chinese-Malay mestizos, Malay and various other people and mixes of people that still speak Spanish as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th language. And what of the people that can speak Spanish because they learned how to in high school/university? It's not a required part of their curriculum anymore, but Spanish language classes ARE still part of the curriculum. The fact that it still is means that theres still demand for it. Anyways, I think the Philippines definitely satisfies enough of the criteria to be allowed membership.
[edit] Languages are organized by letters of the alphabet
- As this in English it should be organized in English, it is maybe offensive the organization in this article, as in most language Spanish starts with an "E" it is the second language after Catalan, but in this article is the first even if it starts with an "S". It caan be seen a somewhat stupid, but it is better to organize countries by the alphabet as the website does, not to offend anyone!--12:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pan-Latinism?
The Latin Union is not a recent concept of unity among "Latin" cultural nations. The organization was based on the historic 19th century Pan-Latin movements in Europe, and a similar push for a more united Latin America in the 20th century. Supporters of Pan-Latinism as they are called dreamed of a singular empire of Latin countries, the list includes WWII Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and Argentinan leader Juan Peron in the 1950's has nationalistic overtones. I doubt the Latin Union, alike other regional and inter-cultural organizations like the Nordic Union would exist any longer with stronger cooperative organizations of the European Union and the Organization of American States in the Western Hemisphere. +Mike D 26 10:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Latin Union Website
Website was recently updated. The Philippines still remains a member. The Philippine Flag is included in the site's home page flash banner.
However, the year of entry of the Philippines in the organization was in 1985. By that time, Spanish was no longer an official language for 12 years. And on the year after that, Spanish was removed from the college curriculum. Strange, huh?
El Salvador is now a member.--Fifteencounts 01:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- The Philippines has arround 13 million manuscripts in historical documents which I can cite. There are still many land and legal documents in Spanish. The first constitution as well as propaganda material document, Noli Me Tangere and other documents, novels and material were written in Spanish. This satisfies the condition "Existence of significant literature in a Latin-derived language".--Jondel 16:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Latin Union enlargement
I don't understand why Switzerland (where three of its four languages - French,Italian and Ladino - are official languages)is not a member of the Latin Union. Furthermore, New Mexico (USA) and Quebec (Canada) should be members because they officially use Spanish and French/Italian, even if they are not independent States. Brunodam (10/28/06)
[edit] LATIN
how can a mexican be latin if he is an amer-indian?I also think that romanian language should be the only official language in the so called "latin union",because is the closest language to what roman soldiers spoke 2000 years ago.Can somebody say that isn't true? (january 30,2007)
- It isn't true. --Pedro 17:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
