Template talk:Left communism

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The picture is ugly and doesn't mean anything. I don't know what to pu instead, but something must be done. --Inbloom2 12:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• It is a raised fist and a hammer, it resembles to class struggle which is at the bulk of left communism. I don't think it is ugly.

Also, SouB is removed because it was a local tendency and there are many local tendencies which we can add if we are going to start adding them. Situationist removed because it is considered rather as "councilist-anarchism" than "left communism". However we can create an "Events" section and add May 68, as well as other major struggles.

Also, Lenin added as he is considered influential by some Left-communists, and Lenin himself is influential by and defends Pannekoek in "State and Revolution". I find it necessary to stress that I am not a Leninist of any sorts, and I have added him because objevtively he was influential. --Mayis

So you want to do a template:bordigism ? Left communist is first and primarely anti-leninist communism ! --Inbloom2 00:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I prefer no image than an ugly one that had never been used before. --Inbloom2 00:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

There is an anti-Leninist current in it, but left-communist organizations such as the ICC and the IBRP and of course all of their splinter factions also hold Lenin as an important figure. After all, they all took the side of Lenin after Zimmerwald Conferance. Besides, this is not and what I want is not a "Bordigism" template as all currents and influential people from all currents are represented. Also situtionists would not consider themselves "left communist" and left communists would not consider themselves left communist as well.

On the picture, I don't know why you find it ugly, it is a hammer in a fist and it represents the ideology rather well?

--Mayis

Lenin was the first to attack the left communists !

Situationists is a related subject, and Socialisme ou Barbarie had been (and still is) very influential, for example througt Solidarity.

The image means nothing, had never been used by left communists, and we don't need an image. --Inbloom2 18:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The solidarity in England? They made the ICC in England. Lenin was not the first to attack the left communists - it was the social democrats.

The ideology of SouB (the rejection of the crisis in capitalism) died with May 68. They are not influential on anybody (also they are considered as anarchists rather than left-communists), Debord and situatonists are still influential, they are the survivors of the old paradigm, but not the SouB.

I can't understand why you oppose the picture. What is so disturbing about a fist raising a hammer?

--Mayis

About SouB, that's only your POV... No reason at all to remove, also for Situationist.

Lenin was against Left communism, so he clearly doesn't belong to the template !

The image isn't necessary, and doesn't mean anything.

This is not your template, by the way. --Inbloom2 11:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not your template either, by the way. That's not my point of view on SouB - that's your point of view about them. They were a small group of intellectuals who would be best defined as "libertarian socialists". They rejected the crisis of capitalism, they rejected the dictatorship of the proletariat and they rejected Marxism. If SouB is going to be here, there are many other other local organizations which should be here before SouB, such as the Spartacus League, Workers Group of the Russian Communist Party, Communist Party (British Section of the Third International), KAPD, Marx-Lenin-Luxemburg Front, Wildcat, Forment Ouvrier Revolutionaire, Sheng-wu-lien, External Fraction of the ICC (Internationalist Perspectives), Kolinko, Aufheben, ProlPosition, Groupe Communiste Internationaliste, etc. etc. all of which accepted as much more 'left communist' that SouB.

Saying "Lenin was against Left communism therefore he can't be influential to any left communists" is simply dogmatic, biased and wrong - he was influential to some left communists and he is respected by many and this is not my point of view, I am not a big fan of Lenin either, this is simply the truth. I don't see a need in excluding him just because I don't like his policies when he was seriously influential to at least half of the left communists. After all, only the left communists were with him in the Zimmerwald left in Europe and only left communists supported the Bolshevik Revolution in Europe. Even Gorter was praising Lenin sincerely at one point for example.

Perhaps you can explain why you want the image removed rather than saying "I don't like it so I will remove it." It would be more constructive and polite if you did not debate in a manner of "I'm the boss and what I want will happen". --Mayis

What you say about SouB shows only that you don't know what was SouB : there were workers groups, it was a left marxist organisation.

Lenin wasn't a left communist, wasn't even close to left communism main options. --Inbloom2 13:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Adding the KAPD is useless since there's already the Communist Workers International.

About the picture : first, where it comes from ? --Inbloom2 13:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

On SouB, wikipedia article says: "Socialisme ou Barbarie (Socialism or Barbarism) was a French-based radical libertarian socialist group of the post-World War II period." They were around 100 people. There were workers in the group, but it wasn't a workers group. About Castoriadis, this is written: ""His line clearly converged with that of anarchism, but although he made occasional references to the anarchists, like many former Marxists he had little respect for them, and in return they took little notice for him." I don't think SouB belongs here, they are remembered for being libertarian socialists, not left communists. I understand that you like them but really, they weren't left communists. They ended up rejecting Marxism.

On KAPD, actually it might be even more meaningful to put it here rather than KAI if it wasn't a local group as KAI was founded by only one faction (Essen Faction) of the KAPD which had been splitting frequently. When KAPD split from the KPD, they were about 200,000 people (they were in the majority of the KPD), KAI was, internationally, much smaller than that.

True, Lenin wasn't a left communist, but some would argue that Marx, Engels and even Luxemburg wasn't either. The point was that they were all influential to left communism. Lenin was too, whether we like it or not.

--Mayis

For a french group, you should look the french wikipedia - it's said that it was an anti-stalin marxist group, close to council communism.

About the KAPD, it's arguable : we can put it if you want.

You didn't answer : where's the picture coming from ?

Marx and Luxemburg' politics were lefts communists. It's not that clear for Engels, and it's clear that's not the case for Lenin. The point to know who's been influential to some lefts communists (not all !) should bring us to put Freud, for example... --Inbloom2 18:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Uh, yes, I made the picture, I think it resembles left communist ideology rather well. I agree that Marx and Luxemburg's politics were left communist for the most part and I also think Engels was like that too but that's not the point - most people would argue against that. Most people would say that it is a POV issue. As for Lenin, all of the left communists whom he ended up opposing probably were influenced by him initially, and he was influenced by some like Pannekoek for example. Bigger left communist organizations (Bordigists for example) were influenced by Lenin, so were Chinese ultra-leftists opposing Mao, and they numbered several million. Also Freud? Which left-communist tendency was influenced by him? Is there one which calls itslelf "Freudist"?

SouB started of as an anti-stalin marxist group, that's true; at that time they were Trotskyists. Then they debated with some Neo-Bordigists and Pannekoek and they flirted with "councilism". Ultimately they shifted to "libertarian socialism", they rejected Marxism, they rejected the crisis in capitalism. It is said that SouB was an anti-stalin marxist group, close to council communism. This doesn't make them a prominent left communist organization. There is a huge list of different groups which should be on the template than SouB.

Anyway, let's make a "deal". Situationist International and Dictatorship of the Proletariat stays in the template, Lenin and SouB is out, is that good?

--Mayis

In 1949 SouB wasn't trotskyist, and SouB didn't reject marxism, but the usual "marxism" of that time. It was an important left communist group.

"Dictatorship of the Proletariat" is not a "Basic concept" since some left communists don't use that words anymore. --Inbloom2 11:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Since the image comes from nowhere, it has to be removed. We don't need a picture, after all. --Inbloom2 11:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

SouB did start off as Trotskyists. From wikipedis: "The group originated in the Trotskyist Fourth International, where Castoriadis and Claude Lefort constituted a Chaulieu-Montal Tendency before breaking away." They did reject Marxism, they declared that they had to completely reject Marxism and the crisis in order to be revolutionary in their time. They weren't important, and they weren't left communist - they were "libertarian socialists", they are what people think when they hear the word "libertarian socialism", they are considered rather anarchists and it was in no way a "prominent" left communist organization. There is a huge list of real local left communist organizations we should put here before we would even consider SouB and being a left communist myself, I haven't met a single left communist or council communist who considers SouB left communist. Even situationists consider the SouB as an anarchistic group.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is a basic concept of left communism and Marxism, again even the situationists would not reject that. The fact that you personally don't like it shouldn't be important in my opinion.

I'm putting Lenin back to the template, he influenced far more left communists than SouB ever did - and he influenced the bigger half, that's for sure.

I seriously can't understand why you are taking the picture out without making any decent explanation. No offense but you are acting as if you are the owner of wikipedia, you are not even bothering to discuss decently.

--Mayis

Did you ever read what SouB wrote ? I did, and it was clearly left communist, one of the main and the most influential left communists currents in the 50's and 60's, where Guy Debord was formed to marxism, Pannekoek liked what they said, and so on...

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is not a "basic concept" of left communism, since some left communists don't use this anymore. It's not a matter of what we like or not.

Lenin wasn't a left communist, so he don't belong to this template. It's as simple as that.

The picture means nothing about left communism : if it's used only on wikipedia, that's a problem ! We don't need an image at all, but if you insist we can put the hammer and sickle, that's the best. --Inbloom2 01:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I did read Castoriadis, who was the most influential member of SouB and I did not find it left communist. In the sixties he goes on rejecting the crisis of capitalism and rejecting Marxism. It was "libertarian socialists" as I said they are what people think in Europe when they hear the term "libertarian socialism". There are many other local left communist organizations that should be on the template before SouB. I understand that you like them but this is no reason to put them here, really.

Lenin was as left communist as SouB was =P

Which left communists do not use the dictatorship of the proletariat? All of them use it!

What Castoriadis wrote after SouB (meaning after 1965) is something else than what SouB wrote. It has an international influence.

World Socialism, for example, don't use "dictatorship of the proletariat" anymore. --Inbloom2 13:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

SouB does not really have that much of an international influence. It's major area of influence was the French intellectual left and the only other formation which was influenced by them internationally was Solidarity in England and now those people made up World Revolution of the ICC so that influence died out. Also from wikipedia article: "In the early 1960s, disputes within the group around Castoriadis' increasing rejection of Marxism led to the departure of the group around the Pouvoir Ouvrier journal. The main Socialisme ou Barbarie journal continued publishing until a final edition in 1965, after which the group became dormant and was then dissolved." Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against SouB, I just think that there is quite a lot of other more left communist organizations that should be here before them.

World Socialism also advocates participating in elections where one of the most major themes of left communists is anti-parliamentarianism and the rejection of democracy. It is a unique tendency of which we can't generalize their concepts as major concepts of left communism.

--Mayis

I think that you're wrong about what's Left Communism : "the most major themes of left communists is anti-parliamentarianism and the rejection of democracy" !!! Anti-parliamentarianism is shared by most of the left communism, but "the rejection of democracy" is only shared by borigists and the ICC... --Inbloom2 23:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I said "one of the most major themes", and the point about anti-parlimentarianism stands still. Some factions of the German left communism also came to reject democracy, specifically the Berlin faction of the KAPD. And today, only a small percentage of those who identify themselves as left communists talk about "workers democracy" etc.

Rubel is more of an academician and in the article about him the word "left communist" doesn't even exist. Chirik is a famous figure, although probably not big in wikipedia, to my knowledge there is even a novel about him, and he is a much more prominent figure in the left communist movement than Rubel. Mayis 10:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You're quite hard to work with... I let it go for Socialisme ou Barbarie and Rubel (even though you're wrong), but dictatorship ain't a "basic concept" for all the left communism, not at all ! --Inbloom2 17:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm doin my best. I still think that DoP is a "basic concept" for left communism (heck, it's a basic concept of Marxism) but I'll let it go.

[edit] Red

I like the colour Red, but this template is just too much and it actually hurts my eyes. I would use less red and more white. See template talk:communism for an interesting discussion on how to structure and colour political templates. C mon 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Um - there is very little red in this template. Just a thin border, and the image of a hammer and sickle. Template talk:Communism hasn't achieved any consensus on colouring - and the current template is very ugly. Warofdreams talk 02:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I had a similar discussion at template talk:ideology. Honestly, my Mac renders this template: small red border, larger white border area and then around the links a huge red area. The coding "style="background-color:#red"" sort of leads met to believe that it was programmed to be that way. A code like "style="background-color:#white" " would have rendered the background of the concepts. I don't think this healthy to look at. BTW with the link communism's talk is just to see the problems raised with too much colouring, not to copy it or anything. C mon 08:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see - it sounds like an issue with the template being parsed differently by different browsers. We should ensure that the background is consistent and looks reasonable on all browsers! Warofdreams talk 13:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)