Talk:Legends and the Qur'an

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[edit] General criticism

I have doubts that this is page represents a truly encyclopedic topic, at least as it stands now. I won't call it a POV fork, but it seems most of the material here could be merged into Qur'an or Quranic criticism (wherever we have that). Statements like "Almost unanimously, modern Jews and Christians believe that Eve was created from Adam's rib" are just bad - and the quote that follows is not actually from the Quran, but from the Hadith, and is not literal.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your contributions. I moved the rib content, as you said. I only wanted it here temporarily anyway. --Ephilei 22:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legends and hadith

I've started User:Ephilei/Legends and hadith as a partner to this article. Feel free to contribute. --Ephilei 22:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] non NPOV

Sure. It is written as if only where the Qur'an disagrees with Bible, it is myth. (originally written in an edit comment by Aminz)

It's written from the point of view of Source criticism which would say that anything in common with the Bible was taken from the Bible - unless its also in common with a legend, then it could have been taken from either. You're implying it has a Christian bias, yes? Any non-Muslim would write the article exactly the same. If Legends and the Bible is written, I'll welcome it. A lot of work has been done there already. It would be easy. What suggestions are there to make this NPOV, if it isn't already. --Ephilei 02:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we move this article to "Myth, Legends and the Qur'an".

Ephilei, My point is that according to historians, one source of the myth in the Qur'an is the Bible. The article seems to imply that the sources of myth are only unorthodox texts. For example,

"Most of this literature was created long after the events they documents, after orthodox accounts had been written, therefore they are not considered to have any historical accuracy."

This seems to imply that the Biblical accounts have historical accuracy. --Aminz 06:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Aminz. Let me first clarify the background of the article: People who don't think the Qur'an was divinely revealed wonder where its content came from. If, they hypothesize, it's not from God, then obviously large portions are from the Bible, which is common knowledge among those familiar with the Qur'an. That's covered thoroughly in Similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an. Then what about the rest of the Qur'an's content? That is what this article covers. An article covering both sources would be 1) very long and more confusing 2) redundant with the Similarities article 3) avoids the issue that these documents are folklore and not accepted by Jews and Christians. There's no Jewish or Christian bias here. It's all about source criticism. An anti-semitic atheist would have the same view.

There is a reason to separate the content from the Muslim perspective also: Muslims gladly say that parts of the Bible are/were from God so that's all fine. Parts of the Qur'an are new to humankind, and that's fine. But what about these parts of the Qur'an? Whatever the Muslim view, it's markedly different from the biblical content. I'd love if you could include the Muslim view or reaction to this material because I don't know what it is. Muhammad Asad embraces it, but I don't want to assume most Muslims agree with him. What do you think personally?

Using the word "myth" opens a huge can of worms so I don't think it should be used without very strong motivation. Skim through the vast debate over page moves for Myth and related pages. I've made sure to avoid that word here. See also User:Ephilei/POV. I agree that legend isn't an ideal word. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it "a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated." A more fitting word would be fable, but that seems non-NPOV because fables are always false which (I think) many Muslims would strongly disagree. Perhaps a better name is Non-cannonical documents and the Qur'an? That's a mouthful and only a religion nerd (like me) would ever read it. --Ephilei 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ephilei, I am not objecting to what is already included here. I am not disagreeing that this article should cover the question of "People who don't think the Qur'an was divinely revealed wonder where its content came from."

My point is that this article shouldn't be restricted to this question. This article is about "Legends and the Qur'an". What are the sources of legend: 1. The Bible 2. Jewish folklore, Christian folklore, Alexander Romance etc etc.

The Encyclopedia of the Qur'an has an article on this topic. It covers "myth" and "legends" together. That was why I asked to cover both these in this article. --Aminz 18:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

How, do you suggest, does the definition of "myth" differ from "legend"? I'm open to it, but I don't understand how the word "myth" would improve the title. --Ephilei 23:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

According to Encyclopedia of the Qur'an, "Myths are narratives that serve to explain and describe the experienced world by laying bare its archetypal patterns; they are often staged in a cosmic or supernatural framework so as to manifest binding truths, to generate meaning and provide guidance. Legends, raising no such universal claim, may be understood as narratives of pious imagination celebrating an exemplary figure."

The source continues: "Are there myths and legends in the Qur'an? Even today, this is a controversial question, since the term "myth," in particular, is sometimes thought to be irreconcilable with the concept of revelation. The reasons for such hyper-sensitivity are historical; to quote Jarsolav Stetkvych..." --Aminz 08:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Those are great definitions! So what makes any of these elements? I think the story of the Cave and Abraham the idol smasher are myths because they are complete stories, but nothing else because they are only elements. What do you think? I think the "killing all mankind" section isn't a myth or legend, just a straight-out teaching. Perhaps then the best name of the article is really Folklore and the Qur'an? I didn't want to use it before because I thought "legend" was more NPOV than "folklore." However, since the whole article could be considered a subset of Criticism of the Qur'an, and the POV (the good kind of POV) of the article is of folklore anyway, perhaps that title is fair. What do you think? --Ephilei 23:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't make a decision until there's an agreement. --Ephilei 23:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Why this article should be a subarticle of Criticism of the Qur'an? It can be written NPOV and if it criticizes, so it does. Anything related to the story of Abraham is considered to be legend (please check the entry of Columbia Encyclopedia on Isaac). Ephilei, I prefer that we find a couple of academic articles on this and summerize them. I have already got one but haven't gone through it yet. Cheers, --Aminz 07:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I would rather "Myths and legends" most simply because Encyclopedia of the Qur'an follows this pattern. --Aminz 07:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because some paper encyclopedia does? I don't think that's a good enough reason. Many authors would not combine myth with legend, Joseph Campbell for one. I hope you do contribute. I've been the only one so far so there's been no one to double check my work - unless it's already perfect! which I can't believe! Yes, Abraham is legend and myth. So what do you think about the title Folklore and the Qur'an? --Ephilei 18:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)