Talk:Linear B

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Contents 1 Is Linear B like Chinese or Japanese? 2 Cypriot Syllabary 3 Summary of Archeology, Crete, Linear B 4 Bennett left out 5 What does the Q stand for 6 Controversy ignored?

[edit] Is Linear B like Chinese or Japanese?

I would admit that I don't know Linear B. But if it is as described as "poor compliance with the phonemic principle" and is partly syllabic, with additional logographic signs that are "determinative", or "designational" (yielding "classes", and "types"), it is more like Chinese than Japanese.

The Japanese kana is pure syllabic and forms complete words while kanji (literally, Chinese word) is imported complete word. The interleaving of kana and kanji serves as word delimiter since Japanese does not have "space" as modern European languages.

A significant numbers of Chinese words are phonemic with determinative, though most of them are poorly compliant with phonemic principle.

To claim that Linear B is like Japanese is to say that Linear B consists of phonemic symbols interleaving with foreign words such as Egyptian hieroglyphs.

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I can't read any of the signs on this page. I think we'd need images for all the signs, since most people viewing this page will not have the appropriate fonts installed. Pfalstad 05:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I know. Unicode Linear B is hardly supported by any system. If you can find a copyright-free image, or create one yourself, it would be most welcome dab (ᛏ) 09:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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The conclusion drawn by User:Spryom, "that all early civilizations in the eastern mediterannean areas (mainland Greece, Aegean, Cyprus, Crete and Ionian coast) were actually Greek.", is unwarranted. I adjusted accordingly. Mycenaean-age settlements that show material culture of Mycenaeans suggest Greek-speaking cultures in specific Aegean sites, but I thought that was getting offtopic. --Wetman 16:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that my phrase was quite bad and I certainly won't insist on it, but your wording greatly weakens the archaeological significance of the deciphering and doesn't show a united Greek world of the Mycenean times. My view is that more than "that a Greek-speaking Minoan-Mycenaean culture existed on Crete", the deciphering of Linear B showed a united (at least culturally) Greek world in the area. Evans thought that the Cretans and Myceneans were enemies of different cultures. Linear B showed that they were the same tribe. This also unites them under a common civilization, with the Cypriots and the Ionian coast, where we also know that Linear B and A was used. It appears you're a native english speaker, would you consider another go? --Spryom 09:51, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cypriot Syllabary

The important role of the Cypriot syllabary in the decoding should be described. (See Chadwick, John (1958). The Decipherment of Linear B).

see Template:sofixit :o) dab (ᛏ) 13:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of Archeology, Crete, Linear B

I started to try to clean up this section, but then I wondered if it should be included at all, as it appears there may be some original research here with verifiability problems:

The major cities, and "palaces" of Crete, kept annual, yearly, or other{ ? ) records, for disbursements of goods. Wool, sheep, and grain were some common items, often given to groups of religious people, and also groups of "men watching the coastline". It is known that the tablets were kept in groups, and in baskets on shelves, because some of the palaces burned, see Knossos, and/or earthquake and volcanic events, also precipitated largescale fires. The fires, from catastrophes, made "fired-clay tablets", of a percentage of the tablets found. Impressions of the basket weaving, have been left in the clay.

One of the interesting categories of tablets, or records(the Logogram for "Chariot Wheel"), concerns wheels for chariots. I am pretty sure that the chariot was like a "backpack". The wheels were recorded as "pairs", and their quality recorded, as their usage caused lifetime wear. I presume that administratively,..a trip out to outlying areas used up supplies on the outward trip, and returned with other supplies, on the return trip. In other words, the unfortified palaces of Crete had this administrative system, that lasted for many generations, on an island that was nearing the end of the Minoan period. (Possibly the volcanic eruption of island Santorini, just centrally north of Crete, (and subsequent multi-year earthquake events?) brought the end to this era.)

First of all, the syntax needs to be cleaned up, as I can't possibly believe that all of those commas are grammatically correct. Secondly, the second paragraph uses the word "I", which both violates our encyclopedic style and makes me wonder if someone has added their own personal theories here. Any thoughts, because this isn't anywhere near my area of expertise. Func( t, c, @, ) 00:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Apparently this is User:Mmcannis's reading of material in the Chadwick title that he added to the References, is it not? Re-editing might be done with an eye to the source (Chadwick) that is being reported in this text. --Wetman 02:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I totally agrre that this is probably irrelevant material and non-encyclopedical - at least to the eye of the reader. I think it should be left out completely too. A simple link to Minoan culture would be fine by it's self.

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Regarding the opening, which states that Linear B was derived from Linear A, this is not the consensus currently, rather that they developed simultaneously or at least on similar time scales. For example, some of the signs in Linear B are more primative than their counterparts in linear A. (unsigned comment by User:Dr_Eng1ish 2006-02-19 20:25:22)

[edit] Bennett left out

Emmett L. Bennett, Jr., had a lot to do with the grid which led to Ventris's solutions. In the books about the decipherment, in the index Bennett is mentioned more times than Kober. I'm not a scholar, so cannot provide an article. I do have a personal bias here, as Emmett is my oldest brother. But I think the bias is worth paying attention to.

Myron Bennett--72.49.92.221 20:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume you mean Chadwick The Decipherment of Linear B (CUP), in which Bennett is mentioned 12 times, Kober 7. I'll look into it, as I have a copy to hand - and thanks for mentioning your personal bias.--Nema Fakei 21:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, he's in for the beginning. I think Blegen deserves a mention too, and I'll look at both their subsequent contributions during the decipherment process. Thanks for pointing this out!--Nema Fakei 21:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does the Q stand for

and the "q" series is used for indo-eurpoean /kʷ/, /gʷ/, /kʷʰ/ and /gʷʰ/: Isn't the above sentence inaccurate? Also is /Tegway/ correct? Should it be Tēg^wai?

I don't see what's inaccurate about the first statement, apart from a small typo. I'm not sure in what tablets Thebes is actually mentioned, but if it is, it should either be recorded as te-qa-a (-ai can never be directly attested: a2 is only found word-initially), or a proper phonological reconstruction /tʰēgʷai/ --Nema Fakei 10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Thanks, I just didn't like the "y" at the end and also the missing superscripts. Also is the final "iota" for the dual or for the plural? Can you please put back the corrected version or should I do it?
2. What is the reasonging for including Thebes pronounciation in that section? Why not all the cities?
3. Also in the sentence about labio-velar Indo-European consonants /kʷʰ/ should not be included or ot should be something like "/kʷ/, /gʷ/ and /gʷʰ/, the last one being devoiced in Greek to /kʷʰ/". Unfortunately in Greek alphabet we only have qoppa to represent all of them. There should be a goppa and a qhoppa :) --Kupirijo 15:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

(1&2) I don't know why someone's addes Thebes in and none of the others. I would therefore say it would be better to leave the Myc version out of it entirely. The final 'i' is for the plural - the dual would be /-ā/.

(3) Ah, I'm being a dunce. We can't reconstruct voiceless aspirates for IE, so it's just /kʷ/, /gʷ/ and /gʷʰ/. Thanks. --Nema Fakei 16:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you corrected it the other way out. I am going to correct it OK? --Kupirijo 16:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy ignored?

The article fails to reflect that Ventris's alleged decipherment was controversial and is considered by some experts to be incomplete. --Nate Levin

Saying it here does not make it so. We can read Linear B. Ventris deciphered it. It is no longer controversial. There are some characters we don't yet know. -- Evertype·✆ 00:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

"The use of the word tends itself to create controversy where none may have authentically existed, acting as a self-fulfilling prophecy.'- Wikipedia, "Controversy". --Wetman 01:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)