Talk:List of Germans

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Contents 1 List of Musicians and Singers needs revision 2 Moving the List of Germans to List of famous Germans? 3 War crimes vs crimes against humanity 4 Linking 5 Changing "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"? 6 Listing Hitler as war criminal pointless? 7 Anne Frank 8 Definition of German 9 The case of Adolf Hitler 10 In the List? 11 Hitler was not German 12 Hitler can be considered as a German 13 Jews are not German 14 Sophie Scholl 15 Inclusion of non-Nazi's in the Nazi list 16 The Porsche family

[edit] List of Musicians and Singers needs revision

This part of the list is of very poor quality. At the moment it is a random collection of names (pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists), some famous, some not known at all. Is Christian Wunderlich (actor and singer) so important that he should feature in the "top 100" of German musicians? What about Fritz Wunderlich instead? Suggestions:

• divide list into sections: pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists
• only list names of international importance
• only list names if there is an articel in Wikipedia

[edit] Moving the List of Germans to List of famous Germans?

I think List of Germans should be moved to List of famaous German. We don´t have to list anybody and if I take a look at the portugese, german and italian wikipedia article name we should really rename it. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily, take a look at List of Swedes or List of Austrians - these are good models for a list of ... .Themanwithoutapast 20:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

So can random people in Germany add their name to the list? billybobfred 03:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War crimes vs crimes against humanity

war criminal is insuficient for Adolf Hitler we are talking about crimes against humanity !

[edit] Linking

I suppose this needs to be linked to from one of the pages to do with Germany, but I don't know where (there are various pages listed at German) - does anybody know if there's a standard way of doing this? --Camembert

I've just added a link to List of famous Germans from Germany/Temp. -- Juan M. Gonzalez 02:34 Sep 8, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Changing "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"?

Could we change "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"? -- Zoe

I prefer "sportsperson" (even though it is a bit ugly) because "athlete" has a specific use (and even in a more general sense, it suggests something which requires strength, speed or stamina, ie not golf...:) --Camembert

Not in my idiolect. Sportsperson isn't even a real word! -- Zoe

To me, at least, "athlete" implies... well, athletics. Running, jumping, all that. But "sportsperson" implies... well, a person who does any sport! "Athlete" doesn't cover footballers or rugby players or whatever. Sven945 09:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Listing Hitler as war criminal pointless?

it seems pointless to list hitler as a war criminal. Are we then going to list all the nazi leaders as war criminals? where will it end? the man was a dictator-that sums it up pretty clear

[edit] Anne Frank

I very much doubt whether Anne Frank is a famous german. In the Netherlands we see her as a dutch jewish person, but I am not aware of her formal nationality.

Well, her family was from Germany, where she was born. They moved to Holland when Anne was very young. Ethnically, she was German. --Gabbe 15:41 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

ethnically?? The Frank family fled from Germany due to discrimination.

ethnically?? I would just write that she´s born here so listing her would be okay. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree with the above statement about Anne Frank. It is a bit rich to list her under famous Germans. Also if you want Germany to be considered to be a 'hip' modern country perhaps it is best to trim-down the very long list of Nazi's and Royalty!!Norwikian 10:44, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why should accurate information be removed? Wouldn't it make more sense to add more non-Nazis and non-royalty, than to take out correct information? john 08:59, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

We're not here to advertise Germany, we're here to describe it. That's what Wikipedia is for. billybobfred 03:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of German

It seems there are some issues about who qualifies as German. It seems clear that the article is about people of German nationality (as opposed to people of German language or people who lived in Germany); maybe we should explicitly say so.

Three sample cases that might cause confusion:

• Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart -- should clearly be in the list. Unlike often assumed, he was not Austrian. Even if he had been, Austria still belonged to Germany at the time of his life.
• Franz Schubert -- similar issue; he was Austrian, and Austria was a part of Germany when he was born, although not when he died.
• Immanuel Kant -- generally regarded as German (he lived in a city where German was spoken and wrote in German), but actually the area where he lived did not belong to the Holy Roman Empire and he never even set foot into Germany. His nationality was Prussian; while Prussia later became a part of Germany, it was not during Kant's time.

I would propose: Let's be clear that we are talking about legal nationality. For people born between the 16th century and 1806: they are German if they have the nationality of a state of the Holy Roman Empire. For people born in 1871 and later: they are German if they have the nationality of the German Empire or the Federal Republic of Germany or the German Democratic Republic.

Problematic cases:

• People who lived in the Holy Roman Empire before it became to be considered "German" (around the 16th century). We probably should distinguish between German, Italian, Bohemian, and other parts of the HRE and include only the German part.

• People who lived 1806-1871, when no "Germany" existed. Two possibilities: a) consider citizens of those countries that later joined the German Empire as "German"; b) consider citizens of territories that were members of the German Confederation as German. Austria would be the most important difference.

--Chl 18:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The only solution that would avoid any kind of NPOV would be to delete everyone before 1871. Martg76 14:20, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The case of Adolf Hitler

Definition of German is much more difficult then you think. You forgot the the most terrible example: Hitler. The Austrians try to make him a German, but he was born in Austria, and he was grown up there to. Thats reason why i deleted him from your list. I think its not in the intrest of wikipedia to ignore this truth, even when its popular. Sorry for my poor english, but I'm (take a guess...) German.

Certainly, the crucial question is how to define Austrians and Germans. Nevertheless, in my opinion Hitler was both, Austrian and German. He was Austrian because, as you rightly pointed out, he was born and raised in Austria. He was German, because he got the German citizenship and was chancellor of Germany. This resembles in some way to Arnold Schwarzenegger who can be regarded as an American and as Austrian as well, since he was born and raised in Austria, but at the same time is an naturalized US-citizen and the governor of California. Nobody would erase Arnold Schwarzenegger from the list of famous US-Americans. Therefore I included Adolf Hitler in the article. Gugganij 22:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason, however, is that people can become American. Other countries, however, are more genetically based, no? Or, at least in a birthright sense of the idea. You wouldn't call an immigrant to Japan Japanese, would you? Andyklus. (sorry for editing, 2nd time commenting.)

[edit] In the List?

please add to the list

• Hugo von Trimberg
• Süßkind von Trimberg
• Michael Spindler
• Max Wien

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 16:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler was not German

Adolf Hitler was NOT German, I repeat, was not. He was born near Linz, Austria (Osterreich), and last time I checked, that was a separate nation in 1889, and remains to this day. He just considered himself German. Hitler should be removed from that list. Эрон Кинней 22:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

He was naturalized and later became chancellor of Germany. Quite strong evidence, isn't it?. Gugganij 00:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Not really. His blood was Austrian, and naturalizing him as a citizen can't change it. Эйрон Кинни (t) 11:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that it's the purity of the blood that counts? How ironic... --Corinthian 17:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler can be considered as a German

The decent of Austrians comes from Germanic tribes such as the Bavarians and Alemanni descendants of whom live in both Germany and Austria. I suppose if Hitler can't be considered German then there can't be anyone with a hyponated nationality i.e. Swedish-American. Informationguy

[edit] Jews are not German

The jews on this list of germans should be taken off. The jews already have a list on your website specifically for jews. The reason for this is that if there were not any germanic people there would not be a german people or germanyand the jews are not germanic, jews are a middle eastern people. Lets say hypothetically that if jews had come into northern europe and there were no other people there(neither celtic nor germanic) jews would not call the countries that they live in france,germany, england, or ireland they would call thema middle eastern name. Let's also say hypothetically that if all the germanic and celtic people were wiped of the face of the earth there is no way that jews would continue calling themselves french german english or white for that matter. The nationhood of those countries depend on the germanic and celtic people who had settled in those areas and fought to keep them.

Should be added: Ernst Mayr Johann gregor Mendel

Albert Einstein, Anne Frank, they were all ethnic German-Jews. Эйрон Кинни (t) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Ethnic German-Jews"? Albert Einstein was ethnically an Ashkenazim Jew with a German passport. He wouldn't have, and in fact didn't, considered himself a German. Same with Anne Frank. She also wasn't ethnically German.

"German" is a nationality. Everyone with a German passport is by definition German. The Nazis tried to come up with separate definitions in order to drive out or kill Jewish Germans whose families had lived in Germany for centuries. No idea what Einstein's feelings about his nationality were and if he developed them before or after the rise of Nazism to power. However, a lot of German Jews were very patriotic, fought in WW I, and so on. They certainly considered themselves German. Besides, with the logic of who came from where, lots of white, protestant or catholic Germans with roots in the Netherlands, France, Poland or any other of the neighboring countries would not be German. In fact, nobody would remain "German" if you go back far enough. We all come from some place in Africa, after all.--134.130.4.46 14:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sophie Scholl

Please strike out the entry of Sophie Scholl under the headline "Personalities of the Nazi Party and Regime"! she definetely is not a person of the Nazi Party and Regime! She died fighting against these criminals!

[edit] Inclusion of non-Nazi's in the Nazi list

I don't believe its fair to list men like Erwin Rommel under the Nazi headline. Was he a famous person in Germany during Hitler's reign? Yes. Was he a Nazi? No, and he gave his life proving that.

I also don't think Rommel was a Nazi, but he didn't die to prove that. After the attempted coup on July 20th the Nazis asked him to either commit suicide or watch his family be killed. He chose his family and killed himself.--134.130.4.46 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Porsche family

As there is no list criteria, does the list only cover Germans at birth only or also include German nationals as the older generation were not born in Germany, as I have included three names from the Porsche automobile corporation that is German, of the lot Ferry Porsche is a German citizen.