Talk:List of Latter Day Saints

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This list needs to be cleaned up. There are multiple entries, even under the same subheading. For example, Merlin Olsen. His name also appears as Merlin Olson on the same list. Also, the addition of additional comments seems arbitrary, such as "champion golfer."

1 Notability
2 mark hamilton...
3 Name Change
4 Criminals and controversial figures
5 Other issues with this list
6 Keri Russell
7 Page Move
8 "Verify Source" and other changes
9 Verifiability
10 Deletions
11 Deletions: Round 2
12 Why does this page exist?

[edit] Notability

Blake Schwendiman, technical author and author of Blake Schwendiman's Blog and Blook

Possible vanity entry moved from list for discussion and/or research. WBardwin 00:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] mark hamilton...

why is mark hamilton's link to 'Ash (the band)'? Someone fix this please.

[edit] Name Change

I would like to move the article to List of Mormons, as the article includes non-Latter-day Saints who are members of other denominations or who are non-LDS cultural Mormons. As such, the title "List of Latter-day Saints" is somewhat inaccurate. The Jade Knight 07:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Many non-Latter-day Saints (including CofC) strongly object to being called Mormons. So -- perhaps a new title should go back to the LDS movement idea? WBardwin 08:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Some Latter-day Saints object to a great many of the things in Wikipedia articles on them. Mormon is most properly a cultural term, and this list seems to be one of cultural, and not just religious, Latter Day Saints. If we are to keep the title, then we should cull the list for all Mormons who aren't Latter-day Saints on it. The Jade Knight 21:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

You are right that the article name - because of the hyphen -- implies these people are all members of the Latter-day Saints (Brighamites). However, the nickname "Mormon" is generally applied to and accepted by only Latter-day Saints (Brighamites). Community of Christ and their offshoots do not use it and neither does the fundamentalist groups. So people of those denominations would not look for a list of Mormon people, and our efforts to provide information in the encyclopedia would be thwarted. So, as you suggested, we could purge the list of all LDS movement people, leaving only those active in the Church. Would the other people go in a seperate list? What would you call that list --- "LDS people who are not Mormons"? Yuck! Or would you like to subdivide them by denomination and maintain this list with a new name? That seems a bit clannish to me. I would prefer a change in title to reflect the broader movement, not use the word "Mormon" and would keep the current format. WBardwin 01:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, part of the issue is that some of these people are not Latter Day Saints in any sense of the word, but are cultural Mormons. Personally, the usage I find most acceptable is "Mormon" to refer to the culture, and "Latter Day Saint" to refer to the religious movement. This appears to not even be a list of Latter Day Saints (let alone Latter-day Saints), but a list of Mormons. Thus a title change is in order. If the title is left as is, some names need to be removed so that it is accurate. If you can come up with a more inclusive term than "Mormon", you are welcome to suggest some, but realize that even "Latter Day Saint" would exclude some of those presently listed (ie, the individuals with no religious association). The Jade Knight 05:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I would think that two lists are necessary List of Latter-day Saints and List of Mormons(or some other name should members of the other denominations oppose this name). LDS should be members and Mormons for cultural Mormons, members of other denominations within the Latter Day Saint Movement, etc. The only problem I see is that if you make membership a requirement, there is no way to verify that; so Latter-day Saints would have to be claimed LDS or something like that. Trödel•talk 21:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not certain that nearly all people who use the term Mormon don't think Latter-day Saint. Perhaps we could use List of members of Latter Day Saint movement? However, that's pretty wordy. DavidBailey 16:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't "List of Latter Day Saints" mean the same thing? The Jade Knight 18:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

So why not "Non-Brighamite LDS" or something like that?Raekuul 01:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really clear on the purpose of the article:

I presume the list is of notable people associated in some way with the Latter Day Saint movement.
Besides being notable, is it a list of people with at least significant roots in the Latter Day Saint movement?

But as I consider the people I know who are CofC or Bickertonite, I am guessing they would not really get warm and fuzzy about the idea of being included in a list of notable X with Latter-day Saints. The Bickertonites (The Church of Jesus Christ) feel at this point completely separate from their LDS cousins. And CofC certainly doesn't "feel" Mormon. There either needs to be a list for each separate tradition or a clear identification in the article which tradition each person's roots are in. Having said all that, if the article is to continue as one, I suppose it must be named according to Wikipedia style, I think List of notable people with roots in the Latter Day Saint Movement or some acceptable abbreviation of that. Tom Haws 16:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Since this has gone back and forth a lot of times, may I suggest the following solution. That the current article stays under its current name, and we include a link (near the top) which states something along the lines of 'if you are looking for a list of members of churches that are associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, please look here'. Then that link goes to a list that lists notables by the various church affiliation. I do think we need to resolve two things. 1. Users expecting everyone on this list to be a member of the LDS church. 2. Users looking for members of churches not LDS, but part of the Latter Day Saint movement. What do you think of this? DavidBailey 22:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Rather than editing the list to include everyone listed here already, names and movements should be moved elsewhere. Formerly Catholic Churches are not listed in a "Catholic Movement" page or anything of the kind. An "LDS splinter-groups" entry or something else might be in order but this is simply ridiculous. Additionally there are persons listed here who themselves do not claim to profess the faith which the entry supposedly identifies. Persons who do not practice a particular religion should not be affiliated by others with the same.

I recommend splitting up the article a bit. Call the article "Notable Latter-Day Saints", and then have a section for Hisorical people (Smith, Young, Eliza R Snow, etc). Then have a section for more current adherants. Then have categories. But this brings up another issue. How does, say Ed Decker or Mark Hoffman fit in. Clearly they are not truly Latter-day Saints, but they are important figures in the LDS movement. Maybe the title should be "Notable people of the Latter-day Saints" to exclude other Mormon-ish groups? "Latter-day Saint people"? Should this be a list of people who are noteworthy for things other than their LDS ties? 66.151.81.244 00:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criminals and controversial figures

Is it really fair to include two porn stars in a section that is largely made up of convicted killers? I understand that many people find this to be a very distasteful profession but its hardly the same as murder. Perhaps their should be one section for criminals and another for controversial figures? Iron Ghost 22:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There is already an Actors section. Perhaps you should move them there. Dr U 01:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that would be appropriate either. Iron Ghost 02:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Porn stars are there because porn stars are controversial figures. If you don't want porn stars in a category made up mostly of killers, add other non-killers. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 04:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Using that logic, we could add Joseph Smith to Controversial figures. Then people would really have a fit. Dr U 16:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

While Joseph Smith may be a controversial figure in a list of religious leaders, he is not controversial amongst Latter Day Saints. There are several people included that are controversial but not convicted killers besides the porn stars you name. Trödel•talk 00:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it meaningful to include those who were born into homes where their parents were LDS, if as soon as they left the home they left the church? The name of this list implies (regardless of the opening paragraph) that the members ARE Latter-day Saints, not that their parents were. Even saying "fomerly" implies that they actively chose membership, which may not have been the case if they were only members as children. In my mind, it is inappropriate to include this category of people in this list. After all, if you had a list of famous chefs, you wouldn't include someone who was the son of Emeril Lagasse unless he became a cook himself. Or you can use to illustrate, a famous Democrats list. A child isn't included unless they become famous and continue to be Democrat. Right? On the other hand, if they became well-known and they professed to be a Latter-day saint, that would be acceptable. DavidBailey 21:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Trödel•talk 21:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It may also be useful to compare the Lists of Roman Catholics page. This has a different list for those excommunicated than those currently members. At the top, it states- "This is a directory of lists of Catholics who profess Catholicism in their trade." DavidBailey 21:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, we need to be more particular about the details of this page. My suggestion, that we rename the page to "List of Mormons" and make it all-inclusive, is unpopular. I think keeping two separate pages would be very confusing; "Mormons" and "Latter-day Saints" are usually synonymous to most people. We could reduce this list simply to "Latter-day Saints" who we can confirm are, in fact, Latter-day Saints, or we could reduce it to simply Latter Day Saints, to be inclusive of other religions, but again limit it to those who are confirmed Latter Day Saints (as opposed to being merely culturally Mormon or being raised LDS but never having continued with the religion). What's the consensus on this one? The Jade Knight 01:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I was not suggesting that pornstars are not controversial, figures merely that there should be seperate sections for controversial figures and criminals. Seeing as there are already seperate sections for swimmers and divers this doesn't seem unreasonable. Iron Ghost 00:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with making a separate section or subsection for controversial figures and convicted criminals. The Jade Knight 01:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I have created a new entry for Excommunicated or Former Latter-day Saints, moved these people to this list, and added some common redirects to it. I have also linked the list in the References section. DavidBailey 00:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Not all those people are former Mormons. You moved Evan Mecham, who (to my knowledge) was never exommunicated, but is definitely contraversial. Likewise, John D. Lee continued to consider himself Mormon even after he was excommunicated, and since his membership was restored in 1961, I think he definitely belongs on this page. Ann Perry also became LDS AFTER she murdered her mom. Likewise, there are many "noncontraversial" figures on the page who are former Mormons who didn't get moved in your edit. I do support deleting former LDS off this page after all the former Mormons get moved to the new page. The other major complicating factor that needs to be addressed is what to do about folks who have neither been excommunicated nor had their name removed from membership roles, but don't claim to be mormon anymore. They don't clealy belong here or on a list of "Excommunictaed or former Later-day Saints" Dr U 01:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured that I would scoop some of those in my first pass. I'm going to be editing, going through the list and moving other former or excommunicated Latter-day Saints to the other list. Please feel free to help me sift through the names and get everything right. I'm removing names from sections in the Latter-day Saint list only as I complete the section. In some cases, I'm going to have to make educated guesses of status, since I obviously don't have access to the membership records. Again, please correct me if you're aware of an error. DavidBailey 01:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The other major issue that needs to be addressed is what to do about people who were excommunicated and then joined another LDS movement church like RLDS or Strangite. William B. Smith was excommunicated and joined both other churches (and started his own). Where to put him? Dr U 02:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think current membership/self-identification status is what should be taken most into account. If they're currently a Latter Day Saint (of any sort), then perhaps they still belong on the Latter Day Saint list, which still needs to be renamed. The Jade Knight 07:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It may be worth noting if they've been excommunicated from any church, or if they are otherwise not known to be actualy members. The Jade Knight 17:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the whole Criminals section is a hitjob. Since when, for example, did Butch Cassidy ever define himself as a member of LDS? That's the problem: most of these criminals don't or haven't ever defined themselves by thier membership to LDS. --Kitrus 09:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other issues with this list

The problems with this list are not limited to categorization. There are hundreds of red links, which seems to indicate a lot of these folks don't even merit a Wikipedia article. It's pretty hard to verify if someone even belongs in this category if they don't have an article, and it kinda hard to justify keeping them listed. And what about "Ethnic Mormons" like Fay Wray, who were never even baptized? Its one thing to list people who were LDS and left, but listing people, just because they have LDS family members? Sorta grasping for straws in my opinion. Dr U 01:43, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This is why I felt the article needed a renaming. I see "Mormon" as being more all-inclusive. However, I have nothing against deleting many of the red-link names on this list. The Jade Knight 01:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

If we limit the list to only those with articles then why not just use Categorization as suggested - then the title is easier because it actually shows up at the bottom of each page, and we can use subcategories: Latter Day Saint Atheletes; Latter Day Saint Controversial Figures ... etc. However, I think that the list should include those that are not quite notable enough for an article Trödel•talk 18:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keri Russell

Does anyone know anything about Keri Russell? She is listed as being a Mormon in a few shakey sources. However, a few recent articles say that she is Jewish.[1][2] Was her family involved in the Mormon church for a while and then left? Mad Jack O'Lantern 21:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Move

I've moved the page due to it discussing more than Latter-day Saints, as reminded by Dr U. That said, do we really need to have Ervil Labaron listed more than once? -Visorstuff 01:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about it and I think Ervil has LDS ties (although loosly), and I think he should be listed, if only for the fact that people think he is a Mormon. How about the title "Notable people with Latter-day Saint connections?", to distinguish adherants (famous athletes) from historically intereted parties (Gov Boggs, for example), and others who are tertiarally tied to the church like Ina Coolbrith, California's first poet laureatte who changed here last name because of her family ties to Polygamy.

I also think the article can be divided up better, and people listed according to thir role either in society, history, or Church leadership connectivity. Bytebear 01:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Verify Source" and other changes

I have added the "verify source" tag to numerous names (mostly entertainers) and made other changes:

removed the Steve Young duplicate entry
removed Tal Bachman (now a staunch critic of the LDS church)
removed the source and asked for a new verified source for Amy Adams (the listed source only said that her family was LDS)
removed Ryan Gosling (the noted source actually says he no longer identifies as mormon)
Broke the link on Scott Alexander (referred to a different Scott Alexander)

Most of the people I noted requiring verification are living individuals. Per Wikimedia guidelines for living individuals, we must have clearly stated indications that they currenly identify as LDS. Having Mormon parents, or even "being raised" LDS is not enough (indeed, the term "...was raised LDS" can imply the opposite, versus say, "...is LDS").

If references are given for those individuals, they should be removed from here in a couple of weeks... -Porlob 19:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I am condensing the "Actors" and "Television and Film" categories into single category called "Film, television and stage personailities". -Porlob 21:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC) (updated: -Porlob 21:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC))

I also think that any red links should be deleted. If they have no article or reference, then are not not likely notable, and their status as Mormons is not verifiable, and should therefore be deleted. Band members with red links but with an article for the band should remain (though probably link only to the band article), though "verification needed" should remain for now until people have had a chance to verify (see the members of The Arcade Fire for example) --Porlob

[edit] Verifiability

I have added the "verify source" tag to any listing that is either red-linked or does not have a reference to LDS movement participation on the subject's article. I think being a BYU student is a reasonable indicator of LDS membership, so I have not added the tag if the article states that, with the exception of BYU football players (who are often recruited from outside of the LDS community). Also, if an article states something like "... was born to Mormon parents," that is not enough of an indication to list them here.

If somoene is notable enough be be listed here, then they are notbale enough to have their own article. Be bold and write one. If they're not notable enough for an article, they shouldn't be listed here. If they are LDS, that fact should either be listed on a reference (see the Andy Toolson listing), or more preferable on their own Wikipedia article. Be bold and add a reference to their article (just having the "Mormon actors/athletes/etc." category on their article isn't enough. It must have a reference and thus be verifiable).

I've tried to remain as objective as possible, adding the "citiation needed" rather than "verify source" where appropriate, but If I've missed something or mis-stepped, feel free to correct it.

Many of the people listed are still alive, and are therefore subject to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy. After 30 days, I'll go through and delete listings for those who have not been verified. -Porlob 15:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and sorry for the ridiculous number of edits I've been making. I'm trying to improve the quality of the article, fixing issues when I come accross them. I'll try to consolidate changes into fewer editing instances. -Porlob 20:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort. But.....given the realities of time limitations on many of the LDS project editors...... how 'bout giving 60 days before deletion? Best wishes. WBardwin 20:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I think it's fair to give more time. I do want everything to be in good faith. How about if after 30 days, if verifications are not still being regularly made, I'll delete; but if people are still adding verifications or references, we hold of for another 10 days or so, until such edits taper off notably. The list is supposed to be "particularly well-known" Latter-Day Saints, yet most of these people have no articles. There are some redlinks (such as Ab Jenkins, to whom I recently added a reference... Though he really deserves an article) who do belong on this list, but much of it seems to be cruft, dubious, and/or poorly sourced. I'd love to hear any other feedback on this, too. -Porlob 21:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added the cleanup tag to attract attention to the verification efforts. -Porlob 14:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

More changes and I've removed Melvin A. Cook outright. A Google search turned up only 454 results, many of which refered to an attorney by the same name. I don't think he's notable enough to meet WP:Notability or the requirments of this article ("particularly well-known" Latter Day Saints). -Porlob 15:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Melvin Alonzo Cook: notable enough for a bio/chemistry related article, I think. After all he was a Noble prize nominee. The "creationist" label might make him sound doubtful. Perhaps it comes from views expressed in an LDS book he cowrote: Cook, Melvin Alonzo, and Melvin Garfield Cook. Science and Mormonism. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1967. And again (a pet peeve of mine) web frequency does not notability make! But, a quick web search shows: Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Yale University (1937), M.A. University of Utah (1934), Nobel Prize nominee (Nitro Nobel Gold Medalist, Swedish Academy, Stockholm (1969), Professor of Metallurgy at the University of Utah (1947-70), Explosives expert and Director of the Explosives Research Institute at the University of Utah, Founder (1958) and President (1962-72) and Chairman (1962-1974) of IRECO Chemicals in Salt Lake City, Chairman of Cook Slurry Company, Resident chemist at E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. (1937-47), Chairman of Cook Associates, Inc. (1973-?), Chemistry Pioneer Award, American Institute of Chemists (1973), E.V. Murphree Gold Medalist Award, American Chemical Society (1968), Loomis Award from Yale University (1937), member of the LDS church. And, if I'm not mistaken, the father of Merrill Cook, former Congressman from Utah. I also found a couple of textbooks, so add academic author to the list. I think he should go back in. WBardwin 03:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Many of the football players are listed on this site http://www.morgannews.us/football.html .--Gmosaki 05:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

A few more changes:

Since no one else did, I added Melvin Cook back in, but we still need either a citation or an article about him...
Removed Ezra Taft Benson duplicate. Does everyone agree that being president of the LDS church is his most notable accomplishment? We don't need to list him twice.
Note: The site above with the football players does not meet WP:Reliable sources standards, espeically as much of it is bound by the stringent standards of WP:BLP. Many of the entertainers that I removed because of negative verification were also listed there. For instance, the site lists Eliza Dushku, Brenden Urie, and Ryan Gosling. All of whom came from Mormon families, but have stated that they are no longer affiliated with the LDS church. Since their list does not link to other references and has already been shown to be unreliable, it doesn't meet RS standards. No information is better than potentially misleading information, especially when it comes to living persons. -Porlob 12:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm not sure where else to post this, as far as verifiability, but I had added Eric D. Snider and Eric Herman recently. Eric D. Snider has many references to being a Mormon on his website (i.e. http://www.ericdsnider.com/lyrics.php), and Eric Herman has mention of performing at the LDS Family Expo and LDS Musicians Festival on his website (http://www.erichermanmusic.com/schedule.html).

I'm adding the reference citation for Herman. It still seems like a rather oblique reference, but I agree that its unlikely that he would perform at the LDS Musicians Festival unless he was LDS... Snider was originally lised without a wikilink to his article. I've now found that he does have an article that details his history with BYU and the LDS church, so I'll add him back in... In the future, feel free to be bold and add citations such as the ones you noted yourself. -Porlob 21:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone added James Quigley, CEO of Deloite and Touche. The James Quigley article it linked to was to a former archbishop of Boston. and a quick Google search for "James Quigley Mormon", "James Quigley Latter Day", and "Jame Quigley LDS" turned up nothing, though I did only dig though the first couple of pages of each.

We're coming up on thirty days since the Verify Source tags were added, and there has been very little activity in actually verifying sources. Per WP:BLP and other Wikipedia policiies, I'll be removing any unverified listings after the 12th. No information is better than potentially misleading information. If it cannot be demonstrated that the people listed are definitely LDS, they should not be on the list. -Porlob 13:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions

It has been thirty days since I originally posted the "verification needed" tags. Since then, there have been very few verifications from reliable sources. Many of the subjects are bound by Wikipedia's standards for biographies of living persons, and those that are not should still be verifiable.

I have now deleted those entries which have not been verified. If you have Reliable Source references to a given person's status, please ad them back in with either a citation on this article (especially for redlinks), or a cited notation on the subject's own article. If any listings appear on this article that are not verifiable, they should be deleted immediately until citation can be provided. If you are unsure about a person's status as a Latter Day Saint, ask about it here on the talk page rather than posting it on the article.

Please note that these people were not removed because they are believed to not be LDS, but because they cannot be verified by reliable sources as LDS. Many of the people listed came from online lists of supposed Latter-day Saints, such as the one linked to at morgannews.us. However, several of the people on that list in particular are demonstrably not (or no longer) LDS, so that is not a reliable source. As Jimbo Wales has said, zero information is better than potentially misleading information on Wikipedia. -Porlob 14:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is really the kind of thing that should be discussed and voted on. If no one replies, wait until a statistically significant number do. There are some really obviously LDS people, results of a great deal of work, that you deleted. Just because you don't personally know Wally Joyner, Alan Ashton, or Dick Marriott are LDS doesn't mean they're not LDS and should be deleted. You simply won't find "reputable" sources for a lot of celebrities, and the direction to go with those types will have to be decided. I don't care if it takes 12 days or 120, until there is a sufficient concensus on the academic direction of this article, you should not just bulk-delete things. And it is not your place to define LDS either. If you think you have an absolute answer to Fay Wray, you don't understand the question. --Mrcolj 01:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

(unindent)I certainly didn't just charge in and delete things willy-nilly. As I mentioned above, I didn't delete people who I thought were not LDS, but I deleted those who were not verified, per WP:BLP which many, though not all, of the people listed are bound by. In my opinion, those that are should be deleted immediately, unless and until citation can be provided. I really didn't "bulk delete." Yes, a lot of information was removed, but it was removed systematically, asking for people to help verify the entries and participate in the discussion about it. I solicited for feedback and input again and again and again before making the change.

Perhaps I should have waited longer for consensus, but as I mentioned as I placed the initial tags, I was encouraging people to try to verify those listings, and with one or two exceptions, no one did. I never claimed to have an "absolute answer" about anything, and in fact most of the many changes and deletions I made between a month ago and now were accompanied by comments here on the talk page. You mentioned that you "simply won't find 'reputable' sources for a lot of celebrities, and the direction to go with those types will have to be decided." Well, the direction already has been decided. Here is Wikipedia's policy on verifiability:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.

2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.

3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

And here is Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons:

Editors must take particular care when writing biographies of living persons and/or including any material related to living persons. These require a degree of sensitivity, and which must adhere strictly to our content policies:

Verifiability
Neutral point of view
No original research

We must get the article right. [1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives... These principles also apply to biographical material about living persons in other articles.

So that question is pretty well settled: unless verifiable sources can be supplied, these entries should be removed, especially those celebrities for whom we "simply won't find 'reputable' sources". Indeed many such celebrities were listed here originally who, as I attempted to verify their listings, it turned out were not LDS or had left the church. Furthermore, the inclusion of many of the redlinks is questionable, as it violates the article's own criteria, as Latter Day Saints who are "particularly well-known", but I don't have real issue with them is citation can be provided.

You said that "Just because you don't personally know Wally Joyner, Alan Ashton, or Dick Marriott are LDS doesn't mean they're not LDS and should be deleted." I never said they weren't LDS, just that no one provided any evidence that they were. Since you have brought them up as examples, I've no doubt they are LDS. That doesn't change the fact that that they should be removed if citation cannot be provided.

I am not trying to piss anyone off here, but just trying to improve the integrity of the article. You mentioned Fay Wray, and she's an excellent example of someone who is up for discussion. I never claimed to have an "absolute answer" about her. My personal take would be to not include her, as she was not verifiably LDS, but a case can certainly be made for her. So let's discuss. When someone brought her up before on this page, no one responded.

I will not re-delete those entries at this time, but perhaps you might consider helping with the effort to find reliable source citations for their inclusion, particularly ones you know something about, such as your examples above. You'll note that during the intervening 30 days, I removed MANY of the "verification needed" tags as I identified reliable sources and added details to the person's main article. Right now, the article is in serious violation of the policies quoted above, and there are two ways to change that: Verify the listings and delete the listings. I'm all for the former, but if that's not done, indeed as it hasn't been done, then deletion is still the appropriate course. -Porlob 13:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'm not mad or a guy who ever gets mad. I know you systematically watched it for at least 30 days. And I agree that they need to be deleted. But most of those people will never have a reliable source--I mean, how many reliable sources write about a person's religion if their actions are not predominantly considered religious in the first place; and of course the bigger question is always why, in 2006, we would consider any pell-mell newspaper a reliable source. We know they don't check sources any more than half the wikipedia submitters do... So I don't know where to go with it, but 10,000 pairs of eyes thusfar have created the list we have, and I'm just not a fan of taking down fences 'til we know why they were put up in the first place... --Mrcolj 19:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like we're really not that far apart in our opinions on these matters. I agree that just because it's in a newspaper doesn't make it gospel truth, and in most of these cases, the subject's religion wouldn't be discussed in a newspaper anyway... A newspaper article isn't required, but there really must be some kind of citation. Online sources are easier for the average reader to verify, but print sources are fine too, as long as they are fully cited. In my view, I think that there should be a reasonable assumption of the reliability of a source unless it can be shown to be unreliable. Such is the case for the morgannews link on the main page, which appears to have been a major source for this article. I would consider this a reliable source, except that many of the people listed there are demonstrably not or no longer LDS (see above for examples), which makes it difficult to accept as a source.

Perhaps we can reach a compromise on what to do with the remaining unverified entries: I propose that we move them here to the discussion page. That way, they can still be easily viewed, copied, and pasted if citations are found, but verifiability and BLP problems with the article are fixed. Any thoughts? -Porlob 07:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Any names that are verified, and all should be verified should at least have a stub article written about them. I am going to make this article my next pet project, so any help is appreciated. I did find this link useful [3] Bytebear 01:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletions: Round 2

I am re-removing any to-be-verified listings. It is important that we ensure the integrity of this article. Please take the time to read my comments above regarding Wikipedia policy, biographical information, and verifiability. If you believe an individual should be listed, please take the time to provide citation and add them back in. There has been no new activity on verifying the listings since the earlier round of deletions was reverted. Remember: according to Wikipedia policy, the onus of proof is on the person making a claim, not on the person removing unverified information. For the convenience of anyone making verifications, below are all of the listings I have deleted:

[edit] Artists

Roscoe A. Grover^{[verification needed]}, painter, did early TV show "Uncle Roscoe" for children on KSL TV
Ethan Van Sciver, US comic book artist^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Auto Racing

Matt Faulkner^{[verification needed]}
Clifford Charles Ohrnberger^{[verification needed]}
Greg Wysocki^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Baseball

Spencer Adams (1898-1970)^{[verification needed]}
Rick Aguilera, Twins player^{[verification needed]}
Bobby Bonilla^{[verification needed]}
Brian Banks^{[verification needed]}
Barry Bonnell^{[verification needed]}
Ron Brand^{[verification needed]}
Bobby Crosby, 2004 American League Rookie of the Year^{[verification needed]}
Bubba Crosby^{[verification needed]}
Kelly Downs^{[verification needed]}
Shawn Estes^{[verification needed]}
Kyle Farnsworth^{[verification needed]}
Mike Fetters^{[verification needed]}
Luis "Louie" Gomez^{[verification needed]}
Jim Gott^{[verification needed]}
Jeremy Guthrie^{[verification needed]}
Bruce Hurst^{[verification needed]}
Roy Halladay^{[verification needed]}
Mark Hamilton^{[verification needed]}
Chad Hermansen^{[verification needed]}
Ken Hubbs^{[verification needed]}
Ken Hunt^{[verification needed]}
Dane Iorg^{[verification needed]}
Garth Iorg^{[verification needed]}
Gary Johnson^{[verification needed]}
Jason Johnson^{[verification needed]}
Wally Joyner^{[verification needed]}
Jeff Kent^{[verification needed]}
Harmon Killebrew^{[verification needed]}
Brandon Lyon^{[verification needed]}
Fred Sanford^{[verification needed]}
Tommie Sisk^{[verification needed]}
Cory Snyder^{[verification needed]}
Garrett Stephenson^{[verification needed]}
Dave Veres^{[verification needed]}
Jaret Wright^{[verification needed]}
Ron Wright^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Basketball

Brandyn Akana^{[verification needed]}
Jarinn Akana^{[verification needed]}
Chris Burgess^{[verification needed]}
Brynn Cameron^{[verification needed]}
Tom Chambers^{[verification needed]}
Vernon Hatton^{[verification needed]}
Skouson Harker^{[verification needed]}
Casey Jacobsen^{[verification needed]}
Britton Johnsen^{[verification needed]}
Travis Knight^{[verification needed]}
Scot Pollard^{[verification needed]}
Mark Pope^{[verification needed]}
Kristen Rasmussen^{[verification needed]}
Fred Roberts^{[verification needed]}
John "Cat" Thompson (1906-1990)^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Bodybuilding

Larry Scott, the first Mr. Olympia (1965)^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Boxing

Jack Dempsey, heavyweight champion boxer^{[verification needed]}
B.J. Flores Heavyweight champion^{[verification needed]}
Rocky R.Twitchell Amateur Boxing Champion^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Diving

Keith Russell Head coach (BYU)^{[verification needed]}
Justin Wilcock^{[verification needed]}
Rachel Kunkel-Smith^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Extreme sports

Brain Call Snowmobile racing^{[verification needed]}
Brad Downs Personal Watercraft Racing^{[verification needed]}
Paul Ruth Surfing (retired)^{[verification needed]}
Aaron Shamy Climbing^{[verification needed]}
Todd Tanner Downhill Mountain Biking ^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Fencing

Andrea Wine (Penn State)^{[verification needed]}

[edit] American football

Bill Bates^{[verification needed]}
Scott Brumfield^{[verification needed]}
Jason Buck^{[verification needed]}
Todd Christensen^{[verification needed]}
Greg Clark^{[verification needed]}
Brandon Doman^{[verification needed]}
Ron Fellows^{[verification needed]}
Makoa Freitas^{[verification needed]}
Travis Hall^{[verification needed]}
Tim Hanshaw^{[verification needed]}
Todd Heap, Ravens tight end^{[verification needed]}
Eric Hipple^{[verification needed]}
Merril Hoge^{[verification needed]}
Junior Ione^{[verification needed]}
Rulon Jones^{[verification needed]}
Mike Leach, Texas Tech Head Coach^{[verification needed]}
Brandon Manumaleuna^{[verification needed]}
Trevor Matich^{[verification needed]}
Scott Mitchell^{[verification needed]}
Edwin Mulitalo^{[verification needed]}
Gifford Nielsen, Oilers quarterback^{[verification needed]}
Bart Oates^{[verification needed]}
Anton Palepoi^{[verification needed]}
Sean Salisbury^{[verification needed]}
Lauvale Sape^{[verification needed]}
Vai Sikahema, football player and Philadelphia sports anchor^{[verification needed]}
Luke Staley^{[verification needed]}
John Tait^{[verification needed]}
Glen Titensor^{[verification needed]}
Phil Tuckett, wide receiver, founder of NFL Films^{[verification needed]}
Joe Tuipala^{[verification needed]}
Danny White, Cowboys quarterback^{[verification needed]}
Kyle Whittingham^{[verification needed]}
Marc Wilson, Raiders quarterback^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Golfing

[edit] Hockey

Steve Konowalchuk^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Horse Racing

[edit] Soccer

Milton "Tita" Queiroz^{[verification needed]}
Aleisha Cramer Rose^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Snowboarding

Nate Jolley (USA)^{[verification needed]}
Jeremy Jones (USA)^{[verification needed]}
Holden Means (UK)^{[verification needed]}
Jason Murphy (USA)^{[verification needed]}
Bryce Redd (USA)^{[verification needed]}
Peter Slingerland (USA)^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Swimming

Jason Brockman^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Track and Field

Ed Eyestone, two time Olympian 1988 Summer Olympics and 1992 Summer Olympics^{[verification needed]}
Charlie Clinger^{[verification needed]}
Creed Haymond^{[verification needed]}
David Hoffman^{[verification needed]}
Elizabeth Jackson^{[verification needed]}
Alma Richards, won gold in track and field in the 1912 Summer Olympics (USA)^{[verification needed]}
Breanne Sandberg^{[verification needed]}
April Steiner^{[verification needed]}
Jack Yerman, won gold in track and field in the 1960 Summer Olympics (USA)^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Volleyball

Scott Bunker^{[verification needed]}
Carl McGown^{[verification needed]}
Ryan Millar, 2004 Olympic Men's Volleyball Team^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Weightlifting

Melanie Kosoff^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Wrestling

Jason Ray^{[verification needed]}
Cael Sanderson, gold medal 2004^{[verification needed]}
Rangi Smart^{[verification needed]}
Mark Schultz, gold medal 1984^{[verification needed]}
Jimmy "Super Fly" Snuka^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Business

Nolan D. Archibald, CEO of Black & Decker^{[verification needed]}
Alan Ashton, Co-founder and former CEO of WordPerfect Corporation^{[verification needed]}
M. Anthony Burns, former chairman, CEO and president of Ryder System^{[verification needed]}
Francis W. Cash, CEO of La Quinta Properties, Inc.^{[verification needed]}
Jonathan C. Coon, president of 1-800-Contacts^{[verification needed]}
Gary L. Crittenden, CFO of American Express Company^{[verification needed]}
Jim Jannard, CEO of Oakley^{[verification needed]}
Glendon Johnson, former chairman, CEO, COO, and president of John Alden Life Insurance Company^{[verification needed]}
Richard L. King, president of Albertson's^{[verification needed]}
Brenda LeVasseur, Quality Specialist of Flowserve^{[verification needed]}
Richard Marriott, chairman of Host Marriott^{[verification needed]}
Matthew McCauley, CEO of Gymboree^{[verification needed]}
James Quigley, CEO of Deloitte & Touche USA^{[verification needed]}
David Weidman, CEO of Celanese^{[verification needed]}
Yong-In S. Shin, Executive Vice-President of Samsung Electronics^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Controversial figures and alleged Criminals

Butch Cassidy, bank robber^{[verification needed]}
Mark Hacking, murderer^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Educators and Scholars

Veldon Lane Rawlins, current President of Washington State University^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Authors and journalists

Lee Roderick, President of The National Press Club^{[verification needed]}
Brady Udall, author of the The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Film, television and stage personalities

Amy Adams, Academy-Award nominated film actress^{[verification needed]}
Katherine Heigl, Gray's Anatomy^{[verification needed]}
Kieth Merrill, filmmaker^{[verification needed]}
Matthew Modine^{[verification needed]}
Kendall Tenney, News Anchor and Emmy Award winner^{[verification needed]}
Peter Urie, BAFTA award winning producer of children's television^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Singers and Musicians

Scott Alexander of Dishwalla^{[verification needed]}
Aaron Bowley of Artifice Black and The Aaron Bowley Band^{[verification needed]}
Eric Bowley of The Scene Aesthetic^{[verification needed]}
Win and Will Butler of The Arcade Fire^{[verification needed]}
Members of Jimmy Eat World^{[verification needed]}
Chad Larson of The Aquabats^{[verification needed]}
Andrew Michael Pedersen of Hootie and the Blowfish^{[verification needed]}
Pipe Dream (Peter Boskovich, Scott Carter, Andy Josephs, Kerry Tait)^{[verification needed]}
SheDaisy^{[verification needed]}
Boyd Terry of The Aquabats^{[verification needed]}
Dan Truman of Diamond Rio^{[verification needed]}
James Valentine of Maroon 5^{[verification needed]}
Warren Zevon^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Commanders

Bruce Carlson, Lieutenant General USAF^{[verification needed]}
James King, Lieutenant General, US Army^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Medal of Honor recipients

Captain Mervyn S. Bennion, USN^{[verification needed]}
Bernard F. Fisher^{[verification needed]}
George Wahlen^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Scientists/Inventors

Robin O. Roundy, Mathematician and professor at Cornell University^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Currently in Office

Mike Simpson, Representative (R-Idaho){{verify source}

[edit] Political activists

Karl-Heinz Schnibbe, opponent of the Third Reich^{[verification needed]}
Rudolf Wobbe, opponent of the Third Reich^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Other

Samuel Cowley, FBI agent appointed by Hoover to bring down Dillinger and the Mafia^{[verification needed]}
Cécile Pelous, humanitarian^{[verification needed]}
Rocky R. Twitchell, Martial Arts Instructor^{[verification needed]}

[edit] Why does this page exist?

Why aren't we just using the "Category:Latter_Day_Saints" to cover this information. This is redundant, and the whole concept of categories is to handle this kind of, well.... categorization. 66.151.81.244 17:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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